[nylug-talk] [NYLXS - HANGOUT] Re: Benefits/drawbacks of building Linux as a package [was: Looking for recommendations on Linux Distro]

[Michael Werneke]

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 2:43 AM, Ruben Safir <ruben at mrbrklyn.com> wrote:

> also for what it is worth, I'm looking forward to the day that this
> can work on my standard PC.  I hope I'm not dead before this can get my
> sound card running.
>
> http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html
>
> Introduction to the Hurd
>
> The GNU Hurd is the GNU project's replacement for the Unix kernel. The
> Hurd is a collection of servers that run on the Mach microkernel to
> implement file systems, network protocols, file access control, and
> other features that are implemented by the Unix kernel or similar kernels
> (such as Linux).
>
> Currently, the Hurd runs on IA32 machines. The Hurd should, and probably
> will, be ported to other hardware architectures or other microkernels
> in the future.  Advantages of the Hurd The Hurd is not the most advanced
> kernel known to the planet (yet), but it does have a number of enticing
> features:
>
> it's free software
>    Anybody can use, modify, and redistribute it under the terms of the
>    GNU General Public License (GPL).
> it's compatible
>    The Hurd provides a familiar programming and user environment. For all
>    intents and purposes, the Hurd is a modern Unix-like kernel. The Hurd
>    uses the GNU C Library, whose development closely tracks standards
>    such as ANSI/ISO, BSD, POSIX, Single Unix, SVID, and X/Open.
> it's built to survive
>    Unlike other popular kernel software, the Hurd has an object-oriented
>    structure that allows it to evolve without compromising its
>    design. This structure will help the Hurd undergo major redesign
>    and modifications without having to be entirely rewritten.
> it's scalable
>    The Hurd implementation is aggressively multithreaded so that
>    it runs efficiently on both single processors and symmetric
>    multiprocessors. The Hurd interfaces are designed to allow transparent
>    network clusters (collectives), although this feature has not yet
>    been implemented.
> it's extensible
>    The Hurd is an attractive platform for learning how to become a kernel
>    hacker or for implementing new ideas in kernel technology. Every
>    part of the system is designed to be modified and extended.
> it's stable
>    It is possible to develop and test new Hurd kernel components without
>    rebooting the machine (not even accidentally). Running your own kernel
>    components doesn't interfere with other users, and so no special
>    system privileges are required. The mechanism for kernel extensions is
>    secure by design: it is impossible to impose your changes upon other
>    users unless they authorize them or you are the system administrator.
> it exists
>    The Hurd is real software that works Right Now. It is not a research
>    project or a proposal. You don't have to wait at all before you can
>    start using and developing it.
>
> What the Hurd means According to Thomas Bushnell, BSG, the primary
> architect of the Hurd:
>
>    `Hurd' stands for `Hird of Unix-Replacing Daemons'. And, then,
>    `Hird' stands for `Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth'. We have
>    here, to my knowledge, the first software to be named by a pair of
>    mutually recursive acronyms.
>
> Status of the project
>
> The Hurd, together with the GNU Mach microkernel, the GNU C Library and
> the other GNU and non-GNU programs in the GNU system, provide a rather
> complete and usable operating system today. It is not ready for production
> use, as there are still many bugs and missing features. However, it should
> be a good base for further development and non-critical application usage.
>
> The GNU system (also called GNU/Hurd) is completely self-contained
> (you can compile all parts of it using GNU itself). You can run several
> instances of the Hurd in parallel, and debug even critical servers in
> one Hurd instance with gdb running on another Hurd instance. You can
> run the X window system, applications that use it, and advanced server
> applications like the Apache webserver.
>
> On the negative side, the support for character devices (like sound cards)
> and other hardware is mostly missing. Although the POSIX interface
> is provided, some additional interfaces like POSIX shared memory or
> semaphores are still under development.
>
> All this applies to the current development version, and not to the last
> release (0.2). We encourage everybody who is interested to try out the
> latest development version, and send feedback to the Hurd developers.
>
> Heh. The HURD is a mess. The partitioning scheme is so incredibly
convoluted and confusing that it will most certainly never be a mainstream
OS. Granted, it may indeed be a superior way to partition disks but no one
but a hardcore geek will ever gr0k it enough to actually use it. Even
Linux's way of naming disks and partitions is so greatly different from
Windows, that newbies to linux have an incredibly difficult time wrapping
their heads around it.

And as far as package management goes for kernels, I gave up on compiling my
own kernels a long time ago. I found that they were just not worth the
effort for my own uses.  When apt (and now aptitude) install new kernels,
they both keep the old kernels and then put the newest kernel at the top of
the grub.conf so if the new kernel happens to panic, or just won't boot
properly I can just reboot and pick the next kernel on the list. As far as
there being issues with pre-packaged kernels, the only ones I've had have
been with obscure and antiquated hardware. I have a DEC Alpha running Debian
Sarge and the initrd had been pointing to the wrong place to find the /
partition. I don't remember what the workaround was, but shortly thereafter
there was an update to the installer and it Just Worked(tm) after that. Your
mileage may vary.

-Mike