From gmlug at saplings.us Mon Jan 1 09:18:35 2007 From: gmlug at saplings.us (gmlug at saplings.us) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 09:18:35 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] CLI AIM In-Reply-To: <459835DE.5010609@vnetworx.net> References: <14e60b050612291811t7874c0dfh7ed1a45f7ca00d29@mail.gmail.com> <4596851C.2090206@saplings.us> <20061230160334.GA11934@mail.scottro.net> <200612301851.00273.sunny@opencurve.org> <45971CFE.8050603@vnetworx.net> <4597A3D7.1020701@saplings.us> <459835DE.5010609@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <4599183B.3060904@saplings.us> Ron Guerin wrote: > Gary Mort wrote: > >> Ron Guerin wrote: >> >>> The thing I'd find useful is a working daemon/commandline pair written >>> for OSCAR and meant to be used by scripts rather than people. I found >>> one somewhere that was written for TOC, but it didn't work when I tried >>> it. If anyone runs across a daemon that maintains a connection to AIM >>> and works with a corresponding command-line client program to send >>> messages, I'd be interested in knowing about it. >>> >> Out of curiosity, why do you want to maintain a connection? I've been >> looking over the various perl modules to connect and send a message, >> with the concept that I would have the program log on, send a message, >> and log off. >> > > The protocol wants a persistent connection and the server will ban you, > if you were to say, send three messages, each with a connection, a > message, and a disconnect within a 60-90 second period. I had this > happen to me recently while testing centericq. > > Good to know. That scratches testing out sending a message one by one then. In that case, SDBA is looking more and more promising: http://duncanlamb.com/sdba Once it is up and running, it will monitor a directory for files formatted to it's liking and will send those files over a variety of instant message applications: http://duncanlamb.com/sdba/?Tutorial//9.+Advanced%26nbsp%3Bstuff+-%26nbsp%3Ballowing+other+applications+to+use+your+bot+to+send%26nbsp%3BIMs+and+run+commands Somewhat more involved, you can script it to respond to messages being sent from an instant message client. I haven't looked closely enough to see if it has a direct interface, or if the only way to send a message through it is to setup those files. I was looking at it to see how hard it would be to integrate it with Kannel so you could do dry runs and testing of sending SMS messages through Kannel by setting up a Fake SMS Service Center which would accept the message and then pump it out over an instant message application. From r.mariotti at fdcx.net Mon Jan 1 11:56:28 2007 From: r.mariotti at fdcx.net (Bob Mariotti) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:56:28 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Fellow luggers; I am a big fan of gps gizmo's in my car. But, as one who has a relative newly relocated to the Big Apple, I was thinking that a helpful gift might be a handheld gps device geared towards the pedestrian. I saw advertised recently one by Mio, the digi-walker H610. It claims that it is a combo mp3 player/voice/video GPS unit for the person "on the go". Therefore, as most geeks are gadget gurus, someone must have some experience with city aware gps's. So, if ANY of you reading this have experience using hand-held gps for finding and walking directions, please commend. Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. Also, the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. I welcome all feedback, ideas, recommendations, etc. for this technical but NOT specifically on topic request. Thank you and happy new year all! bobmct From jays at panix.com Mon Jan 1 14:41:05 2007 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:41:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:52 -0500 From: Geo. To: full-disclosure at lists.grok.org.uk Subject: [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered The other day I used my router to limit my Vista laptop from talking to anything but one subnet on the internet. 3 days later suddenly some things would not work. Solitaire failed to start, click on it and you get the magic donut showing it's starting up then nothing. Right click on network and pick properties you get the magic donut showing it's starting up then nothing. So I removed the routes so Vista could once again phone home and within a minute or two both solitaire and network properties worked just fine. Now this Vista system is less than 30 days old and has already been activated. So the claims that Reduced Function mode only kicks in if you don't activate within 30 days is bunk if this is Reduced Function mode. So I decided to trigger RF mode on purpose to see how it responds. I stopped the Software License service which claims that doing so will trigger RF mode. 24 hours later solitaire, network properties, and control panel all show the same behavior, the magic donut showing they are starting up then nothing. No events in event log, nothing. I then started the Software License service and presto like magic these functions work again. So I'm convinced that the machine being routed so it can't talk to MS triggered RF mode within a few days. Now to me this seems pretty clear even though it wasn't a real scientific method of testing. And further, this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. I mean imagine if MS fell off the planet we would have a pretty major problem as the bulk of the worlds computers started shutting down, talk about a security issue? So anyone here with a bit more technical expertise want to pick up this ball and run with it? Geo. _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ From ajai at bitblit.net Mon Jan 1 14:53:30 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:53:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Bob Mariotti wrote: > I am a big fan of gps gizmo's in my car. But, as one who has a > relative newly relocated to the Big Apple, I was thinking that a helpful > gift might be a handheld gps device geared towards the pedestrian. > > I saw advertised recently one by Mio, the digi-walker H610. It claims > that it is a combo mp3 player/voice/video GPS unit for the person "on > the go". > > Therefore, as most geeks are gadget gurus, someone must have some > experience with city aware gps's. So, if ANY of you reading this have > experience using hand-held gps for finding and walking directions, > please commend. > > Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the > public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. Also, > the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. Funny, Ive been looking at similar solutions. The most portable ones Ive found are the Garmin nuvi range (a lot of Radio Shack stores have these). They come preloaded with street maps but some of them allow you to augment that with data on SD/CF cards. What's stopped me so far is the prices - expect to pay somewhere between $400 and $600 for a decent unit... -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From vaibhav at vaibhavsharma.com Mon Jan 1 16:10:57 2007 From: vaibhav at vaibhavsharma.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:10:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Bob Mariotti wrote: > >> >> Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the >> public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. >> Also, >> the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. > > Funny, Ive been looking at similar solutions. The most portable > ones Ive > found are the Garmin nuvi range (a lot of Radio Shack stores have > these). > They come preloaded with street maps but some of them allow you to > augment > that with data on SD/CF cards. In the past few years, I have tried various combinations of GPS devices and mapping software. The nuvi range is appealing but garmin's UI interface is very restrictive and over simplified. There is no way to make full use of the device's capabilities. Over that, while driving back from seattle to portland, the device would randomly jump 100 meters away from the highway and insist that we take a U turn to get back on the highway. I guess the performance would be worse in the city. My wife thinks the nuvi voice prompts are very egoistic. :p I personally like Tomtom's UI, rich navigation options and the ability to make use of the available information. However, it does have its own quirks. The POI database and the maps are far from being called current. Lets you find a restaurant but you cant see its telephone number to be able to call it to check if it still exists. The nuvi has that option. I wanted a GPS to record my speed/altitude/direction while I am taking private pilot lessons. Aviation gps are available but the cheapest one is $599. The handheld garmin Etrex series work the best for this purpose. Cheap ($200) and featureful. For car navigation, a friend uses a cheap ($99) external bluetooth gps receiver with the tomtom software on his Treo. Works well, but then everyone does not like carrying two devices. > > What's stopped me so far is the prices - expect to pay somewhere > between > $400 and $600 for a decent unit... Yeah, anything GPS is expensive. In my opinion, currently available devices are just one step away from being perfect for multiple uses. Another year and the next versions of Garmin and Tomtom GPS devices should do exactly what we want them to do. My $0.02. -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From gmlug at saplings.us Mon Jan 1 16:37:33 2007 From: gmlug at saplings.us (Gary Mort) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 16:37:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> References: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Message-ID: <45997F1D.8090405@saplings.us> Bob Mariotti wrote: > Fellow luggers; > I am a big fan of gps gizmo's in my car. But, as one who has a > relative newly relocated to the Big Apple, I was thinking that a helpful > gift might be a handheld gps device geared towards the pedestrian. > > I saw advertised recently one by Mio, the digi-walker H610. It claims > that it is a combo mp3 player/voice/video GPS unit for the person "on > the go". > > Therefore, as most geeks are gadget gurus, someone must have some > experience with city aware gps's. So, if ANY of you reading this have > experience using hand-held gps for finding and walking directions, > please commend. > My wife just got a TMobile Dash. I fiddled around a bit with Navison, but it doesn't run on the Dashit yet. The nice thing about Navison is you don't need any GPS, it can position itself based on WiFi networks and/or Cell Towers provided the database is loaded(how does the database get loaded? By people who DO have GPS devices attached to their pocket pc's. It correlates the GPS data with the cell towers in the area and any wireless networks in the area.). To encourage people to give them the data, they give out points to people for finding wireless networks and Cell Towers, and when you get enough points they claim they will give out cash(what is to stop someone from setting up a wireless router to go and run through 10,000 SID's with different MAC addresses I don't know. I assume they do so verification.) Of course, if one can figure out their protocols, one could go and write a program for Linux to tie into their network and pull down data over WiFi and determine GPS data. Another interesting app is Flickr has a database of CellTower locations setup and if you use their photo posting software from your cell phone(small number supported) they will tag the photo with the cell tower it came through - thus allowing you to have a geographical map of all the pictures you took. From vaibhav at vaibhavsharma.com Mon Jan 1 16:43:28 2007 From: vaibhav at vaibhavsharma.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:43:28 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> References: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2007, at 11:56 AM, Bob Mariotti wrote: > > Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the > public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. Also, > the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. Well, for the simple purpose of accessing public transportation info on the go, I use this on my Nokia E50 - http://www.nanika.net/metro/ -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From kevin.mark at verizon.net Mon Jan 1 16:51:51 2007 From: kevin.mark at verizon.net (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:51:51 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070101215151.GT14507@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 01, 2007 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:52 -0500 > From: Geo. > To: full-disclosure at lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered > > The other day I used my router to limit my Vista laptop from talking to > anything but one subnet on the internet. 3 days later suddenly some things > would not work. > > Solitaire failed to start, click on it and you get the magic donut showing > it's starting up then nothing. > > Right click on network and pick properties you get the magic donut showing > it's starting up then nothing. > > So I removed the routes so Vista could once again phone home and within a > minute or two both solitaire and network properties worked just fine. > > Now this Vista system is less than 30 days old and has already been > activated. So the claims that Reduced Function mode only kicks in if you > don't activate within 30 days is bunk if this is Reduced Function mode. > > So I decided to trigger RF mode on purpose to see how it responds. I stopped > the Software License service which claims that doing so will trigger RF > mode. 24 hours later solitaire, network properties, and control panel all > show the same behavior, the magic donut showing they are starting up then > nothing. No events in event log, nothing. > > I then started the Software License service and presto like magic these > functions work again. So I'm convinced that the machine being routed so it > can't talk to MS triggered RF mode within a few days. Now to me this seems > pretty clear even though it wasn't a real scientific method of testing. And > further, this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. I mean imagine > if MS fell off the planet we would have a pretty major problem as the bulk > of the worlds computers started shutting down, talk about a security issue? > > So anyone here with a bit more technical expertise want to pick up this ball > and run with it? > > Geo. Hi *, if this is indeed the scenario, then in essence there is single point of failure for all vista servers. Any concerted effort to DDOS this magic vista IP address will make billions of computers become useless. Works for me(tm). Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFmYJ3v8UcC1qRZVMRApLwAJ4y2lVysJqCh6NXH3lg+aL49DvdrQCfZ6kb YglsQ1WtPJjLB2zfuS4VxsM= =MwtD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jays at panix.com Mon Jan 1 20:56:40 2007 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:56:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20070101215151.GT14507@localhost> References: <20070101215151.GT14507@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Kevin Mark wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, Jan 01, 2007 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:52 -0500 >> From: Geo. >> To: full-disclosure at lists.grok.org.uk >> Subject: [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered >> >> The other day I used my router to limit my Vista laptop from talking to >> anything but one subnet on the internet. 3 days later suddenly some things >> would not work. >> >> Solitaire failed to start, click on it and you get the magic donut showing >> it's starting up then nothing. >> >> Right click on network and pick properties you get the magic donut showing >> it's starting up then nothing. >> >> So I removed the routes so Vista could once again phone home and within a >> minute or two both solitaire and network properties worked just fine. >> >> Now this Vista system is less than 30 days old and has already been >> activated. So the claims that Reduced Function mode only kicks in if you >> don't activate within 30 days is bunk if this is Reduced Function mode. >> >> So I decided to trigger RF mode on purpose to see how it responds. I stopped >> the Software License service which claims that doing so will trigger RF >> mode. 24 hours later solitaire, network properties, and control panel all >> show the same behavior, the magic donut showing they are starting up then >> nothing. No events in event log, nothing. >> >> I then started the Software License service and presto like magic these >> functions work again. So I'm convinced that the machine being routed so it >> can't talk to MS triggered RF mode within a few days. Now to me this seems >> pretty clear even though it wasn't a real scientific method of testing. And >> further, this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. I mean imagine >> if MS fell off the planet we would have a pretty major problem as the bulk >> of the worlds computers started shutting down, talk about a security issue? >> >> So anyone here with a bit more technical expertise want to pick up this ball >> and run with it? >> >> Geo. > Hi *, > if this is indeed the scenario, then in essence there is single point of > failure for all vista servers. Any concerted effort to DDOS this magic > vista IP address will make billions of computers become useless. Works > for me(tm). > Cheers, > Kev ;) oo--JS. From ajai at bitblit.net Tue Jan 2 13:52:27 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:52:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > I personally like Tomtom's UI, rich navigation options and the > ability to make use of the available information. However, it does > have its own quirks. The POI database and the maps are far from being > called current. Lets you find a restaurant but you cant see its > telephone number to be able to call it to check if it still exists. > The nuvi has that option. I like the TomToms too but the nuvi is smaller and the design (fits into a shirt pocket) making it more portable (that curved back on the TomToms doesn't quite work so well in your pocket ;-) > For car navigation, a > friend uses a cheap ($99) external bluetooth gps receiver with the > tomtom software on his Treo. Works well, but then everyone does not > like carrying two devices. I did not mention in my last post that I have a Nokia 770 which has a Bluetooth car navigation kit available for it [1]. But what is really cool are two free apps that use GPS: GPSDrive [2] and Maemo Mapper [3]. GPSDrive is a GPS mapping app for Linux that has been ported to the 770 which can use a Bluetooth GPS device [4]. Maemo Mapper is similar except it can grab GPS data and then grab the corresponding map from Google Maps to display. Since there are no decent smartphones that (a) dont run Windows or PalmOS, and (b) have software as great as the old Psion machines, I have been looking to use the 770 as a PDA/surfing/ebook/mapping device. Did I mention the 770 runs Linux? ;-) As you pointed out though, the downside is having to carry an extra device... [1] http://tableteer.nokia.com [2] http://gpsdrive.kraftvoll.at/ [3] http://gnuite.com:8080/nokia770/maemo-mapper/ [4] http://nokia770.com/305 -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ajai at bitblit.net Tue Jan 2 13:56:08 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:56:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > Well, for the simple purpose of accessing public transportation info > on the go, I use this on my Nokia E50 - > > http://www.nanika.net/metro/ Weird - I once started working on a similar app for Symbian devices and I also called it Metro... Often subway maps are available as PDFs which you can carry on a flash card and open on a lot of mobile phones/devices devices these days (Im sure the Symbian devices have a PDF reader available). -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ezra.taylor at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 14:19:09 2007 From: ezra.taylor at gmail.com (Ezra Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:19:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down Message-ID: Hello people: Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? Ezra -- Ezra Taylor From ajai at bitblit.net Tue Jan 2 14:21:36 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:21:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Ezra Taylor wrote: > Hello people: > Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? Works For Me. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From etamme at optonline.net Tue Jan 2 14:31:31 2007 From: etamme at optonline.net (etamme at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 19:31:31 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <817877602-1167766360-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-1612699798-@bxe044-cell01.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Yes Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Ezra Taylor Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:19:09 To:NYLUG Technical Discussion Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down Hello people: Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? Ezra -- Ezra Taylor _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk From scottro at nyc.rr.com Tue Jan 2 14:35:57 2007 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:35:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070102193557.GA38273@uws1.starlofashions.com> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 02:21:36PM -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Ezra Taylor wrote: > > > Hello people: > > Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? > > Works For Me. Working for me, from a business network with AT&T as provider, and also from my home machine, using nyc.rr.com. -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Willow: Xander, wanna stay and help me? Xander: Are you kidding? Willow: Yes, it was a joke I made up. From spacey-nylug at lenin.net Tue Jan 2 14:42:03 2007 From: spacey-nylug at lenin.net (Peter C. Norton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070102194203.GE18663@lenin.net> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 01:52:27PM -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > I like the TomToms too but the nuvi is smaller and the design (fits > into a shirt pocket) making it more portable (that curved back on the > TomToms doesn't quite work so well in your pocket ;-) I've got a nuvi350, and it's worked beautifully so far, at least within its limitations. Driving in the city from inwood to the JFK area was a breeze the other day, and while out in denver a couple of weeks ago everything worked great. The reason I went for the nuvi over a tom-tom or a pda combo is that I want my wife to be able to use it to walk around since she's still somewhat new to the city. Its hard to explain the geography of the area in words and I don't always have all the maps with me, so she can always see where we are/where we're going. It is easily held in the hand, and so far in my limited use it's got oddball behaviors like taking a strangely long time to lock-on in some areas (with full view of the sky) and not being able to have multiple waypoints or save a route. It really sucks that more access to the features of the device aren't available - just being able to save a route and some similar stuff would make a world of difference. It's ability to read off street names is fantastic (we kept missing turns in colorado until we found the voices to name streets, exit numbers, etc. Being told "turn in XXX feet" is very useless when you have 4 exits/streets/ramps etc. in a row coming up). -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From drewclist at rdd.name Tue Jan 2 15:32:52 2007 From: drewclist at rdd.name (R. Drew Davis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 15:32:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> My SONY TJ37 has a PDF viewer in it, but when I downloaded a PDF file of the NYC subway map from the web to my memory stick, it wouldn't open in the PDA. There were no messages, but I figured it was something to do with memory limitations that kept it from opening even a peephole view of the big map. I have seen that there are iPOD downloads of the map - in the form of a zillion little tiles. I don't have an iPOD so I don't know how usable that version of the map is. I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the museum entrance on 5th Ave. I was impressed that it knew the Long Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. Drew On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 13:56 -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > > > Well, for the simple purpose of accessing public transportation info > > on the go, I use this on my Nokia E50 - > > > > http://www.nanika.net/metro/ > > Weird - I once started working on a similar app for Symbian devices and I > also called it Metro... > > Often subway maps are available as PDFs which you can carry on a flash > card and open on a lot of mobile phones/devices devices these days (Im > sure the Symbian devices have a PDF reader available). > > From spacey-nylug at lenin.net Tue Jan 2 16:55:40 2007 From: spacey-nylug at lenin.net (Peter C. Norton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:55:40 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> References: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20070102215540.GG18663@lenin.net> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 03:32:52PM -0500, R. Drew Davis wrote: > I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows > connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC > bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the > Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. > that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 > changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the > museum entrance on 5th Ave. But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. > I was impressed that it knew the Long > Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, > it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to > take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to > Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending > on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station > along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from > Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes > too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. Send feedback to the author. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From ezra.taylor at gmail.com Tue Jan 2 17:03:01 2007 From: ezra.taylor at gmail.com (Ezra Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:03:01 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your response. Its our network. I swear I used irc before at work. Anyway, take care all. Ezra On 1/2/07, Ezra Taylor wrote: > Hello people: > Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? > > > Ezra > > -- > Ezra Taylor > -- Ezra Taylor From wdg3rd at comcast.net Tue Jan 2 23:27:34 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 04:27:34 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: "Peter C. Norton" > On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 03:32:52PM -0500, R. Drew Davis wrote: > > I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows > > connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC > > bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the > > Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. > > that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 > > changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the > > museum entrance on 5th Ave. > > But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. Yeah, I did that once. There was a couple in the back row who weren't waiting for their honeymoon. I wasn't the only one who went past my stop fascinated by what those two were doing with, for, next to, and occasionaly in spite of each other. I really don't understand this conversation. I'm from Los Angeles and live in Jersey and have never had a problem navigating in Manhattan or Brooklyn. In Manhattan, the streets are numbered. In Brooklyn they're either numbered (yeah, on incompatible grids) or sort of alphabetical, with the odd road with some silly historical or gratuitious name (who actually calls "Avenue of the Americas" that?). It would _help_ if numbering had a standard origin. In Los Angeles County, I can always find my way if I know which way is north and what the numbers are on the buildings (aside from a few "independent" municipalities like Pasadena) and know how far and what direction I am from the Los Angeles City Hall (what some of us call the Jack Webb Memorial). 1000 to the mile EW or NS. Extends for as much as thirty miles way out in Simi Valley. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader. Joseph Sobran From vaibhav at vaibhavsharma.com Wed Jan 3 01:50:38 2007 From: vaibhav at vaibhavsharma.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 01:50:38 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2007, at 11:27 PM, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: >> But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. > > I really don't understand this conversation. I'm from Los Angeles > and live in Jersey and have never had a problem navigating in > Manhattan or Brooklyn. In Manhattan, the streets are numbered. In > Brooklyn they're either numbered (yeah, on incompatible grids) or > sort of alphabetical, Directions are not an issue for someone who knows the basic grid layout of the City. The problem is of being able to navigate using a combination of on-foot and public transportation system, as quickly as possible. When in a car, GPS systems can integrate traffic related information to re-route you to avoid roadblocks. If subways related information was included (information is already available easily), you could do the same with public transportation too. -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From richard.ibbotson at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 09:21:42 2007 From: richard.ibbotson at gmail.com (Richard Ibbotson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:21:42 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] OpenStreet Map Message-ID: <200701031421.45123.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Hi We've decided to have a go at this over here in Sheffield... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Sheffield Looking around the site I see that information for the New York area is scarce. I will most likely be coming out there later this year and could join in for a few hours of mapping activity if anyone in NY would like to organise a mapping event. Not sure of an exact date for travel just now. Was thinking that someone out there might be interested :) -- Richard www.sheflug.org.uk From rguerin at nylug.org Wed Jan 3 10:37:54 2007 From: rguerin at nylug.org (Ron Guerin) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 10:37:54 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Special New Year's Treat: Meeting dates through June 2007 Message-ID: <459BCDD2.8090409@nylug.org> NYLUG is pleased to be able to announce meeting dates for the first half of 2007, and extra pleased to be able to announce a return to the 3rd Wednesday of each month. January 17, 2007 (Wednesday) February 21, 2007 (Wednesday) March 21, 2007 (Wednesday) April 18, 2007 (Wednesday) May 16, 2007 (Wednesday) June 20, 2007 (Wednesday) Topics to be announced. Given that it's seemed to work out ok, we'll generally accept signups via the RSVP system early from now on also. - Ron From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Jan 3 11:43:04 2007 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:43:04 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Preinstalled DRM In-Reply-To: <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061227230438.GP18663@lenin.net> <20061228030417.GA15070@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <4593BF27.4000303@saplings.us> <20061229044715.GA24261@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20061230163117.GE3773@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> > on Oracle's "Unbreakable" Linux. Oxymoron: So long as morons have oxygen then the system is breakable -- or so inflexable as to be nearly useless. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Jan 3 11:46:21 2007 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:46:21 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <4595C921.9030107@vnetworx.net> References: <456F19FB.7010706@vnetworx.net> <456F23AE.4050101@saplings.us> <458D8E26.9010406@vnetworx.net> <45955206.2080707@vnetworx.net> <4595A6DB.1080602@wrkhors.com> <4595C921.9030107@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> > That's as close to invisible as I think we can hope to get. I was > surprised by how much the RSVP list depressed attendance, and I believe > it's because a lot of people used to decide at the last minute to just > show up. In order to procure any suitable space for our meetings, we > have to have a list, so the primary goal for the list is to make it as > easy as possible to get on or off the list, and to deliver the list as > late as our hosts will allow. If it was up to me, you'd be able to > stand outside the building, and send a SMS message from your phone to > the RSVP list, and then walk into the building where they'd check your > name off on the screen instead of a piece of paper. That's probably not > going to happen, but functionally it would provide the same thing our > hosts get now, which is a list of everyone we're ask them to let into > their building. It's no less valid to have put yourself on the list > from their sidewalk than to have it added anywhere else, the security > aspect of things takes place when you show whatever the building is > accepting as identification, and that just (in theory) proves you're > someone whose name is on the list. (and I'm pretty sure nobody's ever > been turned away from our meetings for insufficient ID so long as they > brought *something* to show) Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing list or hitting up the website. This means that we have to get space based on an estimated group of people showing up, but that allows anyone who has signed up for pre-approval to Just Do It. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From richard.ibbotson at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 12:02:23 2007 From: richard.ibbotson at gmail.com (Richard Ibbotson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:02:23 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Preinstalled DRM In-Reply-To: <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> References: <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <200701031702.24452.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Hmm... http://ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?id=1738 it's the quote at the bottom from Ballmer that made me smile :) -- Richard From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 12:05:54 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:05:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Steven Lembark wrote: > Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate > signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who > is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list > will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing > list or hitting up the website. Err.. didn't Ron just describe a system like this a few days ago? -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ron at vnetworx.net Wed Jan 3 12:08:58 2007 From: ron at vnetworx.net (Ron Guerin) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:08:58 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> References: <456F19FB.7010706@vnetworx.net> <456F23AE.4050101@saplings.us> <458D8E26.9010406@vnetworx.net> <45955206.2080707@vnetworx.net> <4595A6DB.1080602@wrkhors.com> <4595C921.9030107@vnetworx.net> <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <459BE32A.1020209@vnetworx.net> Steven Lembark wrote: > Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate > signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who > is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list > will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing > list or hitting up the website. We had a similar system in place for a number of years, but then one day IBM Security deemed it unacceptable. The way it used to work, once you were RSVP'd, you were always RSVP'd. - Ron From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 12:16:03 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:16:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > My SONY TJ37 Refresh my memory: didn't Sony stop production of the Clie (when I first came to NYC, I worked for a PDA seller...). > has a PDF viewer in it, but when I downloaded a PDF file of > the NYC subway map from the web to my memory stick, it wouldn't open in > the PDA. There were no messages, but I figured it was something to do > with memory limitations that kept it from opening even a peephole view > of the big map. I sometimes come across this problem too. I can open a PDF of the NYC subway map on my 770 but not a PDF of the London subway map - go figure. An expensive alternative is to find a really really small PC like the OQO (oqo.com) which has more memory and beefier processor. > I have seen that there are iPOD downloads of the map - in the form of a > zillion little tiles. I don't have an iPOD so I don't know how usable > that version of the map is. I suppose you could easily dump a GIF on a mobile device (though, zooming in on a GIF image means you lose detail (compared to a vector format like PDF which will rescale everything and still look crisp). > I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows > connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC > bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the > Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. > that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 > changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the > museum entrance on 5th Ave. I was impressed that it knew the Long > Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, > it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to > take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to > Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending > on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station > along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from > Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes > too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. Yep - the current state of the art in AI would still probably be less able than a human brain (assuming that kind of processing is available on phones/mobile devices ;-) -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 12:16:59 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <20070102215540.GG18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Peter C. Norton wrote: > But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. Ah, but some of us are quite willing to trade speed for the view :-) -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ron at vnetworx.net Wed Jan 3 12:19:34 2007 From: ron at vnetworx.net (Ron Guerin) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:19:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459BE5A6.9050809@vnetworx.net> Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Steven Lembark wrote: > >> Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate >> signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who >> is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list >> will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing >> list or hitting up the website. > > Err.. didn't Ron just describe a system like this a few days ago? Not exactly, but close. The problem is (as always) in the details. Based on past experience, as I think I noted before, the rules will inevitably tighten and loosen as the paranoia level in the city rises and falls. The system has to be designed to roll with the punches, which is why I seem to be going to great lengths to make it easy to attend, when simpler measures would seem to make more sense. I can't make the list go away, and there's only a little bit of give-and-take when you're getting donated space from people who also have rules to live with. But I can try to make meeting attendance as spontaneous as possible within the limitations of the meeting spaces, whether under ideal, or less than ideal facilities access policies. - Ron From lembark at wrkhors.com Wed Jan 3 12:08:47 2007 From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:08:47 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Running a FOSS project In-Reply-To: <20061226194611.GO18663@lenin.net> References: <45913A46.9010608@sccs.swarthmore.edu> <20061226162840.GN18663@lenin.net> <20061226194611.GO18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <459BE31F.1000609@wrkhors.com> >>> I think if you're going for a BSD-like license, you should be OK >>> asking contributers (as you did me) the first time or two if the >>> license is OK, and after that getting them to sign off on future >>> contributions until further notice. >> As a follow-up, suppose I include a patch in SVN and later learn that the >> contributor does not wish the code to be licensed under a BSD-like license >> -- is it sufficient to remove the code from SVN trunk, or would i need to >> remove all traces of it from the repository? > > That's up to the contributor. However if they ask you to remove it, > you have to remove it from anywhere people could access it via you, as > the distributor, making it available. Which is difficult to do with SVN: You'd have to regenerate the entire repository. A better approach might be to say up front that backing code out of the project will only affect versions after the request is handed in -- the old versions are still under their original aggreement which did have an item in the repository. Another way to say it is that backing out of the project is not retroactive. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 12:26:07 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:26:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > I really don't understand this conversation. I'm from Los Angeles and > live in Jersey and have never had a problem navigating in Manhattan or > Brooklyn. In Manhattan, the streets are numbered. In Brooklyn they're > either numbered (yeah, on incompatible grids) or sort of alphabetical, > with the odd road with some silly historical or gratuitious name (who > actually calls "Avenue of the Americas" that?). For the most part I agree but somewhere south of Houston that nice scheme breaks down. Also, what about streets that are one-way but change to two-way for part of the time? (3rd Avenue springs to mind). If you're driving that's a real pain to deal with. And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned :-) My biggest problem with travelling by any surface vehicle in the US is the fact that your signs are just awful. Crap in fact. Directions are not clear (or non-existent in a lot of cases). Also, knowing that there's a street fair several blocks ahead of time would be bloody useful - instead you just hit a road block where the entire traffic flow is trying to make a detour down a street not designed to carry that many lanes of traffic... -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 14:13:03 2007 From: sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:13:03 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system Message-ID: <14e60b050701031113y413e7dbbw63543f20a7338c6f@mail.gmail.com> > But I can try to make meeting attendance as spontaneous as > possible within the limitations of the meeting spaces, Why would you want to make a meeting spontaneous? Steve M From sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 14:20:41 2007 From: sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:20:41 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> I would much rather have spent the time familiarizing myself with the local geography and metro public transportation system. There is a multifold benefit with learning the local surroundings of the destination your going to. One is it is a great opportunity to learn some local history, another is you have an idea of where you are in case you feel like you are in a threatening neighborhood. Good excerize for the brain is another reason. I used to travel to different part of this part of the northeast using nothing but public transportation and amtrak maps. Computers are fun but they can't provide a 'rich' experience no matter how talented the programmer may be. Steve M ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the museum entrance on 5th Ave. I was impressed that it knew the Long Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. From dcrosta at sccs.swarthmore.edu Wed Jan 3 14:24:52 2007 From: dcrosta at sccs.swarthmore.edu (Dan Crosta) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:24:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031113y413e7dbbw63543f20a7338c6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031113y413e7dbbw63543f20a7338c6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459C0304.9090904@sccs.swarthmore.edu> sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Why would you want to make a meeting spontaneous? I think the goal was to allow people to spontaneously decide to attend a meeting as soon before the meeting as possible -- within the constraints of what IBM allows. - d From sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 14:27:30 2007 From: sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:27:30 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> > For the most part I agree but somewhere south of Houston that nice scheme > breaks down. Also, what about streets that are one-way but change to > two-way for part of the time? (3rd Avenue springs to mind). If you're > driving that's a real pain to deal with. No big deal, just learn to adapt real quick, I grew up here and drove into Manhattan many times at various parts of the day. This was before drivers became courteous due to the price of gas. There is a certain resilient skill set a person picks up being subjected to a stressful environment like driving in Manhattan during rush hour. > My biggest problem with travelling by any surface vehicle in the US is the > fact that your signs are just awful. Crap in fact. Thats pure baloney, I've driven across the US numerous times into destinations I have never been to and the signs are actually far more straightforward than I gave them credit for. Very often I gave the signs more credit than they deserved in terms of being complicated and as a result got lost because I thought I knew better than the sign. > Directions are not > clear (or non-existent in a lot of cases). Also, knowing that there's a > street fair several blocks ahead of time would be bloody useful - instead > you just hit a road block where the entire traffic flow is trying to make > a detour down a street not designed to carry that many lanes of traffic... Why drive into Manhattan anyway. Steve M From sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 14:29:45 2007 From: sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:29:45 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system Message-ID: <14e60b050701031129w5d9d1a2es9fddda27b7ed4a59@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like a dynamically static idea. Steve M > I think the goal was to allow people to spontaneously decide to attend a meeting > as soon before the meeting as possible -- within the constraints of what IBM allows. > > - d From ahpook at verizon.net Wed Jan 3 14:39:22 2007 From: ahpook at verizon.net (Ah Pook) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:39:22 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701031439.23291.ahpook@verizon.net> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 2:27 pm, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > My biggest problem with travelling by any surface vehicle in the US > > is the fact that your signs are just awful. Crap in fact. > > Thats pure baloney, I've driven across the US numerous times into > destinations I have never been to > and the signs are actually far more straightforward than I gave them > credit for. Very often I gave the signs more credit than they > deserved in terms of being complicated and as > a result got lost because I thought I knew better than the sign. One of my favourite memories of Cuba is driving down the highway and seeing a big sign frame - it obviously signified something, once, but no sign remained, just the frame. But that was OK, because there was a guy standing there available to provide directions. US signs are certainly crap though, with NY being among the worst. Part of that is because there are just so many of them, and the "system" seems to be to just add new ones rather than any kind of cleanup. From sunny at opencurve.org Wed Jan 3 15:27:37 2007 From: sunny at opencurve.org (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:27:37 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:26, Ajai Khattri wrote: > And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land invasion ... haha ... -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From tekronis at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 15:53:08 2007 From: tekronis at gmail.com (H. G.) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:53:08 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <60131f920701031253x58b480a4m8cdb0221a97ead38@mail.gmail.com> On 1/3/07, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:26, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > > And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned > > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out > by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... > > -- > Sunny Dubey > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > I absofrickenlutely agree with this. It seems as though they were rolling dice to decide where to place random dead ends, and they were quite liberal in sprinkling in streets that just reverse upon one themselves (ie., you're going down an one way street and suddenly find yourself facing another one way street.........coming opposite your direction.) From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 15:55:22 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:55:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031129w5d9d1a2es9fddda27b7ed4a59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Sounds like a dynamically static idea. Not really. Imagine not being able to attend a meeting but then on the day of the meeting your circumstances change so you now you CAN attend the meeting. We want to be able to allow a person to register an hour or two before the event and still be able to attend. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 16:12:30 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:12:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... I blame the Dutch ;-) -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 16:16:08 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:16:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Thats pure baloney, I've driven across the US numerous times into > destinations I have never been to > and the signs are actually far more straightforward than I gave them credit for. > Very often I gave the signs more credit than they deserved in terms of > being complicated and as > a result got lost because I thought I knew better than the sign. I, of course, am comparing NY/NJ with driving in Europe, which is pretty straightforward most of the time. Another point, its very easy to make a U-turn in the UK for example, because every major intersection allows you to do that - I cannot say the same of driving in the US, so if you DO get lost it might take awhile to get back to the last known location. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From ajai at bitblit.net Wed Jan 3 16:20:24 2007 From: ajai at bitblit.net (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:20:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Computers are fun but they can't provide a 'rich' experience no matter > how talented the programmer may be. True to a certain extent but what about combining location with local traffic flow information? Or local events too - knowing that there's a street fair on Park Avenue near Union Square would be good to know even if you ARE using public transport (since a bus would be making the same detour). Computers are good for that kind of mashup of related data. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From darose at darose.net Wed Jan 3 16:37:34 2007 From: darose at darose.net (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <459C221E.3050406@darose.net> Sunny Dubey wrote: > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... I always laugh at how Queens will often have streets like 67th Road, 67th Street, 67th Avenue, etc. all within a few blocks of each other. I don't think they could possibly have thought up a more confusing street numbering scheme if they tried!!! DR From darose at darose.net Wed Jan 3 16:39:08 2007 From: darose at darose.net (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:39:08 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C227C.4050100@darose.net> Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by >> total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land >> invasion ... > > > I blame the Dutch ;-) "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures ... and the Dutch. " lol DR From jgmcbride at yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 16:45:37 2007 From: jgmcbride at yahoo.com (Jim McBride) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <20070103214537.44713.qmail@web56412.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Simple to remember in Queens. Avenues, Roads and Drives ALL run parallel to each other. Streets, Places and Lanes ALL run parallel to each other (not/never with the above). Also for house numbers as the numbers increase the even numbers are ALWAYS on your left hand side. The streets were rename sometime in the early thirties (Rawson Street - 33rd Street) on the number 7 line is one example. Handy to remember. ----- Original Message ---- From: David Rosenstrauch To: NYLUG Technical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 4:37:34 PM Subject: Re: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Sunny Dubey wrote: > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... I always laugh at how Queens will often have streets like 67th Road, 67th Street, 67th Avenue, etc. all within a few blocks of each other. I don't think they could possibly have thought up a more confusing street numbering scheme if they tried!!! DR _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From phantom21 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 3 16:54:20 2007 From: phantom21 at mindspring.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:54:20 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701031654.20684.phantom21@mindspring.com> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:16, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > > My SONY TJ37 > > Refresh my memory: didn't Sony stop production of the Clie (when I first > came to NYC, I worked for a PDA seller...). > As I understand it, they didn't stop manufacturing it, they stopped selling it in the US. You can still buy them in Japan. Mark From spacey-nylug at lenin.net Wed Jan 3 17:02:08 2007 From: spacey-nylug at lenin.net (Peter C. Norton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:02:08 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070103220208.GH18663@lenin.net> On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 02:20:41PM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > I would much rather have spent the time familiarizing myself with the > local geography > and metro public transportation system. There is a multifold benefit > with learning the local > surroundings of the destination your going to. > One is it is a great opportunity to learn some local history, another > is you have an idea of > where you are in case you feel like you are in a threatening > neighborhood. Good excerize for the brain > is another reason. I used to travel to different part of this part of > the northeast using nothing but > public transportation and amtrak maps. > Computers are fun but they can't provide a 'rich' experience no matter > how talented the programmer may be. Have you looked at wikimapia at all? It can certianly enhance the experience in this area, where buildings change names with their corporate overloards (I miss the pan am building) and history is lost in favor of billboards, posters and whatever else can be painted bright and glued, stapled, or rigged high and low. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From spacey-nylug at lenin.net Wed Jan 3 17:04:33 2007 From: spacey-nylug at lenin.net (Peter C. Norton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:04:33 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070103220433.GI18663@lenin.net> On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 02:27:30PM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > For the most part I agree but somewhere south of Houston that nice scheme > > breaks down. Also, what about streets that are one-way but change to > > two-way for part of the time? (3rd Avenue springs to mind). If you're > > driving that's a real pain to deal with. > > No big deal, just learn to adapt real quick, I grew up here and drove > into Manhattan > many times at various parts of the day. You grew up here. Other people do not have the years to grow up again nearby to do this. So Steve, go somewhere else to troll. Your bitterness, curmudgeon-ness, and inability to look at someone else's point of view doesn't come off as funny or whimsical, just as trolling. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:16:46 2007 From: sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:16:46 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031416s7e4ef5b3od966754fd10daf86@mail.gmail.com> > One of my favourite memories of Cuba is driving down the highway and > seeing a big sign frame - it obviously signified something, once, but > no sign remained, just the frame. But that was OK, because there was a > guy standing there available to provide directions. That sounds like such a communist solution; employ the people, let the infrastructure rot. > US signs are certainly crap though, with NY being among the worst. Nope they are not, I'm guessing you havent traveled much in the US by car. > Part of that is because there are just so many of them, and the "system" > seems to be to just add new ones rather than any kind of cleanup. What kind of cleanup do you think is necessary? Or maybe its just that NYC is congested? Actually to back pedal a little I'd say NJ has some of the worst signs and driving restrictions in the US. It's impossible to make a u-turn because of all, you can barely see the street signs at night. I'd say NYC has some of the best street signs in the nation, they are large enough to be seen at night and have reflectors. Steve M From sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:22:59 2007 From: sixtyfourbeets at gmail.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:22:59 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031422t156249c1s716437c1fa2fe0ec@mail.gmail.com> > I, of course, am comparing NY/NJ with driving in Europe, which is pretty > straightforward most of the time. Another point, its very easy to make a > U-turn in the UK for example, because every major intersection allows you > to do that - I cannot say the same of driving in the US, so if you DO get > lost it might take awhile to get back to the last known location. NY and NJ are two different driving environments, in NJ you have to get to the next intersection to just turn around. The next intersection could be a mile down the road. Making a u-turn in Brooklyn is sometimes improvised right in the middle of a the street. European streets are generally very narrow, just enough room for Roman chariots, driving in many part of Europe is generally like driving in Manhattan. Usually you need a pretty compelling reason to drive in Manhattan. Steve M From jdave23 at express56.com Wed Jan 3 19:35:51 2007 From: jdave23 at express56.com (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:35:51 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <1167870951.16894.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 16:20 -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > > invasion ... > > > I blame the Dutch ;-) The Dutch are blameless this time. Perhaps this will help: http://www.ellisparkerbutler.info/epb/biblio.asp?id=3405 In Queens to find locations best -- Avenues, Roads and Drives run West; But ways to North and South, 'tis plain Are Street or Place or even lane; While even numbers you will meet Upon the West and South of Street. Consider the alternative: http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Town/Streets/Queens.Street.changes.html From shaks_tux at yahoo.co.in Thu Jan 4 01:24:31 2007 From: shaks_tux at yahoo.co.in (Shakthi Kannan) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 06:24:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [nylug-talk] OpenStreet Map In-Reply-To: <200701031421.45123.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Message-ID: <282968.16951.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi, --- Richard Ibbotson wrote: > Looking around the site I see that information for > the New York area > is scarce. You might also want to look at: http://www.freemap.in/ SK -- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From drewclist at rdd.name Thu Jan 4 02:44:33 2007 From: drewclist at rdd.name (R. Drew Davis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 02:44:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167896673.5073.120.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 12:16 -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > > > My SONY TJ37 > > Refresh my memory: didn't Sony stop production of the Clie (when I first > came to NYC, I worked for a PDA seller...). Sigh, yes. They discontinued all their PalmOS PDA's. There still seems to be a brisk interest in them on eBay. > > has a PDF viewer in it, but when I downloaded a PDF file of > > the NYC subway map from the web to my memory stick, it wouldn't open in > > the PDA. There were no messages, but I figured it was something to do > > with memory limitations that kept it from opening even a peephole view > > of the big map. > > I sometimes come across this problem too. I can open a PDF of the NYC > subway map on my 770 but not a PDF of the London subway map - go figure. > > An expensive alternative is to find a really really small PC like the OQO > (oqo.com) which has more memory and beefier processor. A really small PC is still a really big PDA. Drew From wdg3rd at comcast.net Thu Jan 4 08:43:56 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:43:56 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <010420071343.24354.459D049C0007308F00005F2222058891160B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: Sunny Dubey > On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:26, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > > And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned > > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... Not as bad as Irvine, CA. Whoever laid out the streets there was on powerful drugs. So was whoever numbered the buildings on those streets. But they were not on the same drugs. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader. Joseph Sobran From jays at panix.com Sat Jan 6 05:01:33 2007 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:01:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: Articles X-URL: http://community.linux.com/print.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 Linux.com The Enterprise Linux Resource http://community.linux.com/ Title How to get a Windows tax refund Date 2007.01.05 13:02 Author StoneLion Topic http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 If you buy a computer, you often pay for Microsoft Windows even if you didn't ask for it and aren't going to use it. This article shows you how to return your unused Windows license and get your money back, freeing yourself from the Windows tax. I recently purchased a new laptop computer from Dell. As a GNU/Linux user and believer in Free Software, I knew from the start that I wasn't going to run Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, Dell didn't offer this laptop with Ubuntu or a no-OS option, so I tried getting my Windows refund from Dell after the purchase. After working with customer service, I received a refund of $52.50. In the course of getting my refund, I found some techniques worked better than others. By knowing what works, you may be able to get your refund quickly and easily. Be prepared and set realistic expectations Before you go down this route, be prepared. Getting your Windows refund may take several hours of work, after which you'll get a small amount of money -- nowhere near the full retail price of Windows on the store shelf. Though your win may be more of a victory for principle than your pocketbook, it is possible to win, and you'll have made an important stand. Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified. Ideally you'll plan on getting your Windows refund before placing your order with the vendor. If you are ordering a new machine, first call the vendor to see if they offer a no-OS option. If they do, use it. If the machine does not come without an installed OS and you have to buy Windows, purchase the lowest-end Windows that you can. In my case, that meant buying the computer with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition. When your computer arrives, document each step of unloading your computer. I took a tip from UK reporter Dave Mitchell, who received a Windows refund from Dell, and took pictures of myself at each step of the process, including opening the box and each and every page of the Microsoft EULA. I zoomed in on the relevant section about returning the license to the vendor. I also zoomed in on the radio button which says "Do Not Accept" and showed myself rejecting the license. This will add some time to your initial computer use, but is proof that you read and rejected the license. Before you make the call, have everything you need in front of you. You should have all the details of your order, including the order number, date purchased, and even your credit card number. You should have the computer's serial number and, in the case of Dell, its Express Service Code. Later in the process, you may need your Windows Certificate of Authenticity (COA) key. It's on the holographic label usually found on the bottom of the laptop. You might find it easier to just have the laptop itself handy. You'll also want to have the text of the EULA ready. You probably don't need the entire thing, but the specific wording about returning Windows to the vendor may become key. Lastly, you're going to want to have a pen and paper ready. If your phone is wireless, you'll want to be sure it's fully charged, and keep a beverage handy -- you could be on the phone a while. Preparing for the call By this time in the process, you're probably itching to get on the phone, get on your soapbox, and get your refund. Resist the urge. Remember that you're looking to exercise a legal right. You're not going to change anyone's mind about Free Software, and any extra time you spend in the process only takes you further from your goal. Be polite. A customer service representative is used to handling dozens of issues a day, but your issue is going to be outside the norm. The person on the other end of the phone is your representation on the company's side, so you want to keep him or her as happy as possible. Don't get angry, don't yell, don't be rude. If things become tense, disarm the situation with kindness, and, if it's appropriate, a joke. You will be put on hold. Dell is fairly good about not leaving folks on hold (especially business customers), but I was put on hold a number of times. There's nothing you can do about it, so just be polite and accept it. What you're asking for is so unusual that they'll probably need to call supervisors. Let them. Expect excuses. They're going to look for ways not to give you the refund. After all, they've never heard of this, so it must be impossible. My first customer service rep said that he couldn't refund my license because I wasn't charged for it. If you hear something like this, don't be discouraged, and don't take it as the final word. I'll tell you how to counter these sorts of arguments in a moment. Don't argue, escalate. If you find you're not getting anywhere with your customer service representative, or you're going over the same point several times, it's time to escalate. Remember our previous guideline of not being rude. You can ask to be transferred without making it into a confrontation. Be sympathetic: "I see that you're trying your best, but that you're not able to do anything else for me. Would it be possible for you to transfer me to someone else?" Be persistent. You'll probably have to speak with several people, repeat yourself, and hear lots of excuses about how you're not entitled to what you're asking for. You're in the right, and as long as you're in the pipeline, you're making progress. When you're not making any more progress, escalate. Don't settle. At several points in my communications with customer service, I was offered coupons, even in excess of what I was asking for, but coupons aren't money. Politely explain that you're looking for a refund in cash (or credit back to your credit card). Use the precedents. If you're in the UK, you can mention reporter Dave Mitchell as someone whose already received a Windows refund. If you're in the US, you can use me. If they've given refunds to the two of us, why not you? During the call, you may find that the customer service representative will come back to you with several excuses about why you're not entitled to your refund. I've compiled a list of them, some which I heard and others which I didn't, and good responses to them. "You can't return the operating system because the computer can't work without it." That's the easiest argument to counter. Explain that you run GNU/Linux (or FreeBSD, or whatever operating system you've replaced Windows with). "You didn't pay anything for Windows." Since the price of Windows was included in the price of the computer, they may try to argue that you didn't pay anything for it. This one is easy to debunk. Windows costs money -- everyone knows that. Once you establish that Windows does indeed cost money (and you can't get it for free) then the only remaining issue is how much you paid. Since Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50. I don't know if this is really how much Windows costs, but it's a non-trivial amount and I can well imagine that one of the world's largest computer makers can get a good deal on Windows licenses from Microsoft. "You bought the bundle." They may tell your purchase was a bundle, that Windows came on the computer as a packaged set and you can't return one without the other. What you have on your side to counter this is the license itself, which says that you may choose to not accept the license and return it to the vendor. No matter what they say regarding a bundle, the legal wording of the license is clear. I heard the B word several times, and each time I explained the terms of the license to them, with the license wording at hand in case I needed to quote it verbatim. If the customer representative tries to cut the conversation short saying it's a bundle, stay polite, but explain that the license is quite clear and that you're just going by the legal wording and exercising your right to return the operating system. "How about a coupon?" I was offered coupons several times. I'm guessing that coupons are easy to give to customers as a way to keep them happy. While you're rejecting the coupons, realize that this is a small victory. All you have to do at that point is ask for cash. "You need to return the CD." As a condition to getting my Windows refund, I was required to give the COA key to the customer representative and return the Windows CD itself. Dell was kind enough to pay for shipping of the CD, so all I had to pay for was the envelope. Your vendor may not be as generous regarding the shipping, but by this time, you've won. You win - or not If you're not working with Dell, you may not have the same success. In this case, you might need to take another tack. Small claims court may be an option. You file paperwork with the court, pay a small fee, and show up in court with all your documentation. You'll need to make your case quickly and succinctly. You may also want to contact the Better Business Bureau for help. Many reputable businesses take the BBB seriously and may be more willing to work with you after it has contacted them. In any case, you'll be spending time and money to resolve the issue, but so will the vendor, so they're likely to look for an amiable solution as quickly as possible. To summarize: * You're only eligible for a refund on new computers * Document everything * Be prepared * Be polite * Be persistent * Be gracious If you follow these guidelines, you're likely to come out with a working computer without the Windows tax. I would be remiss if I did not offer a special thank you to Dell. Despite my initial difficulties, Dell eventually came through. After hearing stories on the Net about folks having to bring their vendor to small claims court, I'm happy I picked a company with reasonable policies and people. I especially want to thank Seema, the floor manager who worked with me on my case and offered me the refund. Links _________________________________________________________________ 1. "Dave Mitchell" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm 2. "Small claims court may be an option" - http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 _________________________________________________________________ ? Copyright 2007 - LiNUX.COM, All Rights Reserved _________________________________________________________________ printed from Linux.com, How to get a Windows tax refund on 2007-01-06 09:58:49 From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 11:02:57 2007 From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:02:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Subject: Articles > X-URL: http://community.linux.com/print.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > > Linux.com > The Enterprise Linux Resource > http://community.linux.com/ > > Title How to get a Windows tax refund > Date 2007.01.05 13:02 > Author StoneLion > Topic > > http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > If you buy a computer, you often pay for Microsoft Windows even if you > didn't ask for it and aren't going to use it. This article shows you > how to return your unused Windows license and get your money back, > freeing yourself from the Windows tax. > > I recently purchased a new laptop computer from Dell. As a GNU/Linux > user and believer in Free Software, I knew from the start that I > wasn't going to run Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, Dell didn't > offer this laptop with Ubuntu or a no-OS option, so I tried getting my > Windows refund from Dell after the purchase. After working with > customer service, I received a refund of $52.50. In the course of > getting my refund, I found some techniques worked better than others. > By knowing what works, you may be able to get your refund quickly and > easily. > > Be prepared and set realistic expectations > > Before you go down this route, be prepared. Getting your Windows > refund may take several hours of work, after which you'll get a small > amount of money -- nowhere near the full retail price of Windows on > the store shelf. Though your win may be more of a victory for > principle than your pocketbook, it is possible to win, and you'll have > made an important stand. > > Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've > booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the > Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified. Ideally you'll plan on getting > your Windows refund before placing your order with the vendor. If you > are ordering a new machine, first call the vendor to see if they offer > a no-OS option. If they do, use it. If the machine does not come > without an installed OS and you have to buy Windows, purchase the > lowest-end Windows that you can. In my case, that meant buying the > computer with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition. > > When your computer arrives, document each step of unloading your > computer. I took a tip from UK reporter Dave Mitchell, who received a > Windows refund from Dell, and took pictures of myself at each step of > the process, including opening the box and each and every page of the > Microsoft EULA. I zoomed in on the relevant section about returning > the license to the vendor. I also zoomed in on the radio button which > says "Do Not Accept" and showed myself rejecting the license. This > will add some time to your initial computer use, but is proof that you > read and rejected the license. > > Before you make the call, have everything you need in front of you. > You should have all the details of your order, including the order > number, date purchased, and even your credit card number. You should > have the computer's serial number and, in the case of Dell, its > Express Service Code. Later in the process, you may need your Windows > Certificate of Authenticity (COA) key. It's on the holographic label > usually found on the bottom of the laptop. You might find it easier to > just have the laptop itself handy. > > You'll also want to have the text of the EULA ready. You probably > don't need the entire thing, but the specific wording about returning > Windows to the vendor may become key. > > Lastly, you're going to want to have a pen and paper ready. If your > phone is wireless, you'll want to be sure it's fully charged, and keep > a beverage handy -- you could be on the phone a while. > > Preparing for the call > > By this time in the process, you're probably itching to get on the > phone, get on your soapbox, and get your refund. Resist the urge. > Remember that you're looking to exercise a legal right. You're not > going to change anyone's mind about Free Software, and any extra time > you spend in the process only takes you further from your goal. > > Be polite. A customer service representative is used to handling > dozens of issues a day, but your issue is going to be outside the > norm. The person on the other end of the phone is your representation > on the company's side, so you want to keep him or her as happy as > possible. Don't get angry, don't yell, don't be rude. If things become > tense, disarm the situation with kindness, and, if it's appropriate, a > joke. > > You will be put on hold. Dell is fairly good about not leaving folks > on hold (especially business customers), but I was put on hold a > number of times. There's nothing you can do about it, so just be > polite and accept it. What you're asking for is so unusual that > they'll probably need to call supervisors. Let them. > > Expect excuses. They're going to look for ways not to give you the > refund. After all, they've never heard of this, so it must be > impossible. My first customer service rep said that he couldn't refund > my license because I wasn't charged for it. If you hear something like > this, don't be discouraged, and don't take it as the final word. I'll > tell you how to counter these sorts of arguments in a moment. > > Don't argue, escalate. If you find you're not getting anywhere with > your customer service representative, or you're going over the same > point several times, it's time to escalate. Remember our previous > guideline of not being rude. You can ask to be transferred without > making it into a confrontation. Be sympathetic: "I see that you're > trying your best, but that you're not able to do anything else for me. > Would it be possible for you to transfer me to someone else?" > > Be persistent. You'll probably have to speak with several people, > repeat yourself, and hear lots of excuses about how you're not > entitled to what you're asking for. You're in the right, and as long > as you're in the pipeline, you're making progress. When you're not > making any more progress, escalate. > > Don't settle. At several points in my communications with customer > service, I was offered coupons, even in excess of what I was asking > for, but coupons aren't money. Politely explain that you're looking > for a refund in cash (or credit back to your credit card). > > Use the precedents. If you're in the UK, you can mention reporter Dave > Mitchell as someone whose already received a Windows refund. If you're > in the US, you can use me. If they've given refunds to the two of us, > why not you? > > During the call, you may find that the customer service representative > will come back to you with several excuses about why you're not > entitled to your refund. I've compiled a list of them, some which I > heard and others which I didn't, and good responses to them. > > "You can't return the operating system because the computer can't work > without it." > > That's the easiest argument to counter. Explain that you run GNU/Linux > (or FreeBSD, or whatever operating system you've replaced Windows > with). > > "You didn't pay anything for Windows." > > Since the price of Windows was included in the price of the computer, > they may try to argue that you didn't pay anything for it. This one is > easy to debunk. Windows costs money -- everyone knows that. Once you > establish that Windows does indeed cost money (and you can't get it > for free) then the only remaining issue is how much you paid. Since > Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way > to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, > I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that > I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50. I > don't know if this is really how much Windows costs, but it's a > non-trivial amount and I can well imagine that one of the world's > largest computer makers can get a good deal on Windows licenses from > Microsoft. > > "You bought the bundle." > > They may tell your purchase was a bundle, that Windows came on the > computer as a packaged set and you can't return one without the other. > What you have on your side to counter this is the license itself, > which says that you may choose to not accept the license and return it > to the vendor. No matter what they say regarding a bundle, the legal > wording of the license is clear. I heard the B word several times, and > each time I explained the terms of the license to them, with the > license wording at hand in case I needed to quote it verbatim. If the > customer representative tries to cut the conversation short saying > it's a bundle, stay polite, but explain that the license is quite > clear and that you're just going by the legal wording and exercising > your right to return the operating system. > > "How about a coupon?" > > I was offered coupons several times. I'm guessing that coupons are > easy to give to customers as a way to keep them happy. While you're > rejecting the coupons, realize that this is a small victory. All you > have to do at that point is ask for cash. > > "You need to return the CD." > > As a condition to getting my Windows refund, I was required to give > the COA key to the customer representative and return the Windows CD > itself. Dell was kind enough to pay for shipping of the CD, so all I > had to pay for was the envelope. Your vendor may not be as generous > regarding the shipping, but by this time, you've won. > > You win - or not > > If you're not working with Dell, you may not have the same success. In > this case, you might need to take another tack. Small claims court may > be an option. You file paperwork with the court, pay a small fee, and > show up in court with all your documentation. You'll need to make your > case quickly and succinctly. You may also want to contact the Better > Business Bureau for help. Many reputable businesses take the BBB > seriously and may be more willing to work with you after it has > contacted them. In any case, you'll be spending time and money to > resolve the issue, but so will the vendor, so they're likely to look > for an amiable solution as quickly as possible. > > To summarize: > * You're only eligible for a refund on new computers > * Document everything > * Be prepared > * Be polite > * Be persistent > * Be gracious > > If you follow these guidelines, you're likely to come out with a > working computer without the Windows tax. > > I would be remiss if I did not offer a special thank you to Dell. > Despite my initial difficulties, Dell eventually came through. After > hearing stories on the Net about folks having to bring their vendor to > small claims court, I'm happy I picked a company with reasonable > policies and people. I especially want to thank Seema, the floor > manager who worked with me on my case and offered me the refund. > > Links > _________________________________________________________________ > > 1. "Dave Mitchell" - > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm > 2. "Small claims court may be an option" - > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 > _________________________________________________________________ > > ? Copyright 2007 - LiNUX.COM, All Rights Reserved > _________________________________________________________________ > > printed from Linux.com, How to get a Windows tax refund on 2007-01-06 > 09:58:49 > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > Hello! Well done Jay. However that does not cover one unique issue. Dell does indeed sell a no OS machine. You just need to insist on asking for it. Its a specie of Dell Dimension that's currently available. There was an entry for it in Linux Journal sometime last year. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From jays at panix.com Sat Jan 6 15:26:34 2007 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 15:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Subject: Articles > X-URL: http://community.linux.com/print.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > > Linux.com > The Enterprise Linux Resource > http://community.linux.com/ > > Title How to get a Windows tax refund > Date 2007.01.05 13:02 > Author StoneLion > Topic > > http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > If you buy a computer, you often pay for Microsoft Windows even if you > didn't ask for it and aren't going to use it. This article shows you > how to return your unused Windows license and get your money back, > freeing yourself from the Windows tax. > > I recently purchased a new laptop computer from Dell. As a GNU/Linux > user and believer in Free Software, I knew from the start that I > wasn't going to run Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, Dell didn't > offer this laptop with Ubuntu or a no-OS option, so I tried getting my > Windows refund from Dell after the purchase. After working with > customer service, I received a refund of $52.50. In the course of > getting my refund, I found some techniques worked better than others. > By knowing what works, you may be able to get your refund quickly and > easily. > > Be prepared and set realistic expectations > > Before you go down this route, be prepared. Getting your Windows > refund may take several hours of work, after which you'll get a small > amount of money -- nowhere near the full retail price of Windows on > the store shelf. Though your win may be more of a victory for > principle than your pocketbook, it is possible to win, and you'll have > made an important stand. > > Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've > booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the > Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified. Ideally you'll plan on getting > your Windows refund before placing your order with the vendor. If you > are ordering a new machine, first call the vendor to see if they offer > a no-OS option. If they do, use it. If the machine does not come > without an installed OS and you have to buy Windows, purchase the > lowest-end Windows that you can. In my case, that meant buying the > computer with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition. > > When your computer arrives, document each step of unloading your > computer. I took a tip from UK reporter Dave Mitchell, who received a > Windows refund from Dell, and took pictures of myself at each step of > the process, including opening the box and each and every page of the > Microsoft EULA. I zoomed in on the relevant section about returning > the license to the vendor. I also zoomed in on the radio button which > says "Do Not Accept" and showed myself rejecting the license. This > will add some time to your initial computer use, but is proof that you > read and rejected the license. > > Before you make the call, have everything you need in front of you. > You should have all the details of your order, including the order > number, date purchased, and even your credit card number. You should > have the computer's serial number and, in the case of Dell, its > Express Service Code. Later in the process, you may need your Windows > Certificate of Authenticity (COA) key. It's on the holographic label > usually found on the bottom of the laptop. You might find it easier to > just have the laptop itself handy. > > You'll also want to have the text of the EULA ready. You probably > don't need the entire thing, but the specific wording about returning > Windows to the vendor may become key. > > Lastly, you're going to want to have a pen and paper ready. If your > phone is wireless, you'll want to be sure it's fully charged, and keep > a beverage handy -- you could be on the phone a while. > > Preparing for the call > > By this time in the process, you're probably itching to get on the > phone, get on your soapbox, and get your refund. Resist the urge. > Remember that you're looking to exercise a legal right. You're not > going to change anyone's mind about Free Software, and any extra time > you spend in the process only takes you further from your goal. > > Be polite. A customer service representative is used to handling > dozens of issues a day, but your issue is going to be outside the > norm. The person on the other end of the phone is your representation > on the company's side, so you want to keep him or her as happy as > possible. Don't get angry, don't yell, don't be rude. If things become > tense, disarm the situation with kindness, and, if it's appropriate, a > joke. > > You will be put on hold. Dell is fairly good about not leaving folks > on hold (especially business customers), but I was put on hold a > number of times. There's nothing you can do about it, so just be > polite and accept it. What you're asking for is so unusual that > they'll probably need to call supervisors. Let them. > > Expect excuses. They're going to look for ways not to give you the > refund. After all, they've never heard of this, so it must be > impossible. My first customer service rep said that he couldn't refund > my license because I wasn't charged for it. If you hear something like > this, don't be discouraged, and don't take it as the final word. I'll > tell you how to counter these sorts of arguments in a moment. > > Don't argue, escalate. If you find you're not getting anywhere with > your customer service representative, or you're going over the same > point several times, it's time to escalate. Remember our previous > guideline of not being rude. You can ask to be transferred without > making it into a confrontation. Be sympathetic: "I see that you're > trying your best, but that you're not able to do anything else for me. > Would it be possible for you to transfer me to someone else?" > > Be persistent. You'll probably have to speak with several people, > repeat yourself, and hear lots of excuses about how you're not > entitled to what you're asking for. You're in the right, and as long > as you're in the pipeline, you're making progress. When you're not > making any more progress, escalate. > > Don't settle. At several points in my communications with customer > service, I was offered coupons, even in excess of what I was asking > for, but coupons aren't money. Politely explain that you're looking > for a refund in cash (or credit back to your credit card). > > Use the precedents. If you're in the UK, you can mention reporter Dave > Mitchell as someone whose already received a Windows refund. If you're > in the US, you can use me. If they've given refunds to the two of us, > why not you? > > During the call, you may find that the customer service representative > will come back to you with several excuses about why you're not > entitled to your refund. I've compiled a list of them, some which I > heard and others which I didn't, and good responses to them. > > "You can't return the operating system because the computer can't work > without it." > > That's the easiest argument to counter. Explain that you run GNU/Linux > (or FreeBSD, or whatever operating system you've replaced Windows > with). > > "You didn't pay anything for Windows." > > Since the price of Windows was included in the price of the computer, > they may try to argue that you didn't pay anything for it. This one is > easy to debunk. Windows costs money -- everyone knows that. Once you > establish that Windows does indeed cost money (and you can't get it > for free) then the only remaining issue is how much you paid. Since > Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way > to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, > I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that > I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50. I > don't know if this is really how much Windows costs, but it's a > non-trivial amount and I can well imagine that one of the world's > largest computer makers can get a good deal on Windows licenses from > Microsoft. > > "You bought the bundle." > > They may tell your purchase was a bundle, that Windows came on the > computer as a packaged set and you can't return one without the other. > What you have on your side to counter this is the license itself, > which says that you may choose to not accept the license and return it > to the vendor. No matter what they say regarding a bundle, the legal > wording of the license is clear. I heard the B word several times, and > each time I explained the terms of the license to them, with the > license wording at hand in case I needed to quote it verbatim. If the > customer representative tries to cut the conversation short saying > it's a bundle, stay polite, but explain that the license is quite > clear and that you're just going by the legal wording and exercising > your right to return the operating system. > > "How about a coupon?" > > I was offered coupons several times. I'm guessing that coupons are > easy to give to customers as a way to keep them happy. While you're > rejecting the coupons, realize that this is a small victory. All you > have to do at that point is ask for cash. > > "You need to return the CD." > > As a condition to getting my Windows refund, I was required to give > the COA key to the customer representative and return the Windows CD > itself. Dell was kind enough to pay for shipping of the CD, so all I > had to pay for was the envelope. Your vendor may not be as generous > regarding the shipping, but by this time, you've won. > > You win - or not > > If you're not working with Dell, you may not have the same success. In > this case, you might need to take another tack. Small claims court may > be an option. You file paperwork with the court, pay a small fee, and > show up in court with all your documentation. You'll need to make your > case quickly and succinctly. You may also want to contact the Better > Business Bureau for help. Many reputable businesses take the BBB > seriously and may be more willing to work with you after it has > contacted them. In any case, you'll be spending time and money to > resolve the issue, but so will the vendor, so they're likely to look > for an amiable solution as quickly as possible. > > To summarize: > * You're only eligible for a refund on new computers > * Document everything > * Be prepared > * Be polite > * Be persistent > * Be gracious > > If you follow these guidelines, you're likely to come out with a > working computer without the Windows tax. > > I would be remiss if I did not offer a special thank you to Dell. > Despite my initial difficulties, Dell eventually came through. After > hearing stories on the Net about folks having to bring their vendor to > small claims court, I'm happy I picked a company with reasonable > policies and people. I especially want to thank Seema, the floor > manager who worked with me on my case and offered me the refund. > > Links > _________________________________________________________________ > > 1. "Dave Mitchell" - > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm > 2. "Small claims court may be an option" - > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 > _________________________________________________________________ > > ??? Copyright 2007 - LiNUX.COM, All Rights Reserved > _________________________________________________________________ > > printed from Linux.com, How to get a Windows tax refund on 2007-01-06 > 09:58:49 > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > Hello! Well done Jay. However that does not cover one unique issue. Dell does indeed sell a no OS machine. You just need to insist on asking for it. Its a specie of Dell Dimension that's currently available. There was an entry for it in Linux Journal sometime last year. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." Ah, Serge Wroclawski is the refund getter here. I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, only Microsoft OSes are advertised. oo--JS. From alex at pilosoft.com Sat Jan 6 16:12:14 2007 From: alex at pilosoft.com (alex at pilosoft.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:12:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft > OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same > computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, > only Microsoft OSes are advertised. False. If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In fact, its right on the website: http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd "Open source desktops" As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. From islesrule at hotmail.com Sat Jan 6 19:17:42 2007 From: islesrule at hotmail.com (Faye Barth) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:17:42 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] nylug-talk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: the Windows tax ... I am thinking about getting a laptop later this year, and don't want any part of Windows on it ... bad enough one of my two home desktops uses it (Gimp does NOT compare to PaintShopPro with EyeCandy4000 plugin, and I don't care for Open Office 2.0). I am starting to wonder if going the DIY route is worthwhile. F. Barth From jays at panix.com Sat Jan 6 22:21:58 2007 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 22:21:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft >> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same >> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, >> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. > False. You may go to http://www.dell.com and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of OS: it is Microsoft only. > > If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than > Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In > fact, its right on the website: > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd > > "Open source desktops" > > As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied > to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. > Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, > particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less > desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav > > Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are > (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). > > I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. Not to give refunds is a gross violation of the decision of the court in the large antitrust suit. Serge got a refund, but most folks who try do not. It is a further violation of the court order to give the impression that only Microsoft OSes run on Dell home machines. Dell and Microsoft are engaged in a combination in restraint of trade. The issue has been abjudicated. Dell and Microsoft lost. But because we who run free OSes do not go to the court, Microsoft and Dell continue their gross attacks on us, and on every buyer of a home machine. Dell and Microsoft wish to end even the bare possibility of running a free OS. To repeat: Dell does not offer for sale any home computer without a Microsoft OS already installed, and Dell and Microsoft ignore the plain and simple terms of the Refund Clause of the Microsoft EULA. Note that Microsoft wrote the EULA. http://www.windowsrefund.info http://www.thetc.org oo--JS. From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 23:17:59 2007 From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:17:59 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > >> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft > >> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same > >> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, > >> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. > > False. > > You may go to > > http://www.dell.com > > and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of > OS: it is Microsoft only. > > > > > If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than > > Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In > > fact, its right on the website: > > > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd > > > > "Open source desktops" > > > > As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied > > to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. > > Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, > > particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less > > desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav > > > > Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are > > (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). > > > > I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. > > Not to give refunds is a gross violation of the decision of the > court in the large antitrust suit. Serge got a refund, but most > folks who try do not. It is a further violation of the court > order to give the impression that only Microsoft OSes run on Dell > home machines. Dell and Microsoft are engaged in a combination > in restraint of trade. The issue has been abjudicated. Dell and > Microsoft lost. But because we who run free OSes do not go to > the court, Microsoft and Dell continue their gross attacks on us, > and on every buyer of a home machine. > > Dell and Microsoft wish to end even the bare possibility of > running a free OS. To repeat: Dell does not offer for sale any > home computer without a Microsoft OS already installed, and Dell > and Microsoft ignore the plain and simple terms of the Refund > Clause of the Microsoft EULA. Note that Microsoft wrote the > EULA. > > http://www.windowsrefund.info > http://www.thetc.org > > oo--JS. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > Hello! Excuse me? Your not getting it, are you? There was indeed an blurb in the new products section of an issue of Linux Journal last month that describes a Dell machine that was built especially for Linux (and probably the BSD crowd as well!). Don't go basing it on that poorly designed website of theirs that's only useful to someone who's a complete naif about hardware. (I should know I went through that hassle for a Dell Dimension who's from the generation before this one.) It also happens that those gonophs in Redmond do honor the terms behind the refund, and it was discussed to its probable demise about eight years ago at an OEM meeting I attended. Now if you want me to prove it, please contact me off list the Monday of the first meeting for this year, and I'll bring in the issue. Ordering it of course is the other problem..... But that's for another one of these. And other then that off list one, please let's drop the subject. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From jays at panix.com Sat Jan 6 23:31:27 2007 From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:31:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> References: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> >>>> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft >>>> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same >>>> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, >>>> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. >>> False. >> >> You may go to >> >> http://www.dell.com >> >> and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of >> OS: it is Microsoft only. >> >>> >>> If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than >>> Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In >>> fact, its right on the website: >>> >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd >>> >>> "Open source desktops" >>> >>> As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied >>> to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. >>> Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, >>> particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less >>> desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav >>> >>> Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are >>> (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). >>> >>> I know, we