From gmlug surelynot saplings.us Mon Jan 1 09:18:35 2007 From: gmlug surelynot saplings.us (gmlug surelynot saplings.us) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 09:18:35 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] CLI AIM In-Reply-To: <459835DE.5010609@vnetworx.net> References: <14e60b050612291811t7874c0dfh7ed1a45f7ca00d29@mail.gmail.com> <4596851C.2090206@saplings.us> <20061230160334.GA11934@mail.scottro.net> <200612301851.00273.sunny@opencurve.org> <45971CFE.8050603@vnetworx.net> <4597A3D7.1020701@saplings.us> <459835DE.5010609@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <4599183B.3060904@saplings.us> Ron Guerin wrote: > Gary Mort wrote: > >> Ron Guerin wrote: >> >>> The thing I'd find useful is a working daemon/commandline pair written >>> for OSCAR and meant to be used by scripts rather than people. I found >>> one somewhere that was written for TOC, but it didn't work when I tried >>> it. If anyone runs across a daemon that maintains a connection to AIM >>> and works with a corresponding command-line client program to send >>> messages, I'd be interested in knowing about it. >>> >> Out of curiosity, why do you want to maintain a connection? I've been >> looking over the various perl modules to connect and send a message, >> with the concept that I would have the program log on, send a message, >> and log off. >> > > The protocol wants a persistent connection and the server will ban you, > if you were to say, send three messages, each with a connection, a > message, and a disconnect within a 60-90 second period. I had this > happen to me recently while testing centericq. > > Good to know. That scratches testing out sending a message one by one then. In that case, SDBA is looking more and more promising: http://duncanlamb.com/sdba Once it is up and running, it will monitor a directory for files formatted to it's liking and will send those files over a variety of instant message applications: http://duncanlamb.com/sdba/?Tutorial//9.+Advanced%26nbsp%3Bstuff+-%26nbsp%3Ballowing+other+applications+to+use+your+bot+to+send%26nbsp%3BIMs+and+run+commands Somewhat more involved, you can script it to respond to messages being sent from an instant message client. I haven't looked closely enough to see if it has a direct interface, or if the only way to send a message through it is to setup those files. I was looking at it to see how hard it would be to integrate it with Kannel so you could do dry runs and testing of sending SMS messages through Kannel by setting up a Fake SMS Service Center which would accept the message and then pump it out over an instant message application. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 11:56:28 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Bob Mariotti) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:56:28 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Fellow luggers; I am a big fan of gps gizmo's in my car. But, as one who has a relative newly relocated to the Big Apple, I was thinking that a helpful gift might be a handheld gps device geared towards the pedestrian. I saw advertised recently one by Mio, the digi-walker H610. It claims that it is a combo mp3 player/voice/video GPS unit for the person "on the go". Therefore, as most geeks are gadget gurus, someone must have some experience with city aware gps's. So, if ANY of you reading this have experience using hand-held gps for finding and walking directions, please commend. Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. Also, the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. I welcome all feedback, ideas, recommendations, etc. for this technical but NOT specifically on topic request. Thank you and happy new year all! bobmct From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 14:41:05 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:41:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:52 -0500 From: Geo. To: full-disclosure at lists.grok.org.uk Subject: [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered The other day I used my router to limit my Vista laptop from talking to anything but one subnet on the internet. 3 days later suddenly some things would not work. Solitaire failed to start, click on it and you get the magic donut showing it's starting up then nothing. Right click on network and pick properties you get the magic donut showing it's starting up then nothing. So I removed the routes so Vista could once again phone home and within a minute or two both solitaire and network properties worked just fine. Now this Vista system is less than 30 days old and has already been activated. So the claims that Reduced Function mode only kicks in if you don't activate within 30 days is bunk if this is Reduced Function mode. So I decided to trigger RF mode on purpose to see how it responds. I stopped the Software License service which claims that doing so will trigger RF mode. 24 hours later solitaire, network properties, and control panel all show the same behavior, the magic donut showing they are starting up then nothing. No events in event log, nothing. I then started the Software License service and presto like magic these functions work again. So I'm convinced that the machine being routed so it can't talk to MS triggered RF mode within a few days. Now to me this seems pretty clear even though it wasn't a real scientific method of testing. And further, this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. I mean imagine if MS fell off the planet we would have a pretty major problem as the bulk of the worlds computers started shutting down, talk about a security issue? So anyone here with a bit more technical expertise want to pick up this ball and run with it? Geo. _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 14:53:30 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:53:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Bob Mariotti wrote: > I am a big fan of gps gizmo's in my car. But, as one who has a > relative newly relocated to the Big Apple, I was thinking that a helpful > gift might be a handheld gps device geared towards the pedestrian. > > I saw advertised recently one by Mio, the digi-walker H610. It claims > that it is a combo mp3 player/voice/video GPS unit for the person "on > the go". > > Therefore, as most geeks are gadget gurus, someone must have some > experience with city aware gps's. So, if ANY of you reading this have > experience using hand-held gps for finding and walking directions, > please commend. > > Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the > public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. Also, > the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. Funny, Ive been looking at similar solutions. The most portable ones Ive found are the Garmin nuvi range (a lot of Radio Shack stores have these). They come preloaded with street maps but some of them allow you to augment that with data on SD/CF cards. What's stopped me so far is the prices - expect to pay somewhere between $400 and $600 for a decent unit... -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 16:10:57 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:10:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Bob Mariotti wrote: > >> >> Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the >> public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. >> Also, >> the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. > > Funny, Ive been looking at similar solutions. The most portable > ones Ive > found are the Garmin nuvi range (a lot of Radio Shack stores have > these). > They come preloaded with street maps but some of them allow you to > augment > that with data on SD/CF cards. In the past few years, I have tried various combinations of GPS devices and mapping software. The nuvi range is appealing but garmin's UI interface is very restrictive and over simplified. There is no way to make full use of the device's capabilities. Over that, while driving back from seattle to portland, the device would randomly jump 100 meters away from the highway and insist that we take a U turn to get back on the highway. I guess the performance would be worse in the city. My wife thinks the nuvi voice prompts are very egoistic. :p I personally like Tomtom's UI, rich navigation options and the ability to make use of the available information. However, it does have its own quirks. The POI database and the maps are far from being called current. Lets you find a restaurant but you cant see its telephone number to be able to call it to check if it still exists. The nuvi has that option. I wanted a GPS to record my speed/altitude/direction while I am taking private pilot lessons. Aviation gps are available but the cheapest one is $599. The handheld garmin Etrex series work the best for this purpose. Cheap ($200) and featureful. For car navigation, a friend uses a cheap ($99) external bluetooth gps receiver with the tomtom software on his Treo. Works well, but then everyone does not like carrying two devices. > > What's stopped me so far is the prices - expect to pay somewhere > between > $400 and $600 for a decent unit... Yeah, anything GPS is expensive. In my opinion, currently available devices are just one step away from being perfect for multiple uses. Another year and the next versions of Garmin and Tomtom GPS devices should do exactly what we want them to do. My $0.02. -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 16:37:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 16:37:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> References: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Message-ID: <45997F1D.8090405@saplings.us> Bob Mariotti wrote: > Fellow luggers; > I am a big fan of gps gizmo's in my car. But, as one who has a > relative newly relocated to the Big Apple, I was thinking that a helpful > gift might be a handheld gps device geared towards the pedestrian. > > I saw advertised recently one by Mio, the digi-walker H610. It claims > that it is a combo mp3 player/voice/video GPS unit for the person "on > the go". > > Therefore, as most geeks are gadget gurus, someone must have some > experience with city aware gps's. So, if ANY of you reading this have > experience using hand-held gps for finding and walking directions, > please commend. > My wife just got a TMobile Dash. I fiddled around a bit with Navison, but it doesn't run on the Dashit yet. The nice thing about Navison is you don't need any GPS, it can position itself based on WiFi networks and/or Cell Towers provided the database is loaded(how does the database get loaded? By people who DO have GPS devices attached to their pocket pc's. It correlates the GPS data with the cell towers in the area and any wireless networks in the area.). To encourage people to give them the data, they give out points to people for finding wireless networks and Cell Towers, and when you get enough points they claim they will give out cash(what is to stop someone from setting up a wireless router to go and run through 10,000 SID's with different MAC addresses I don't know. I assume they do so verification.) Of course, if one can figure out their protocols, one could go and write a program for Linux to tie into their network and pull down data over WiFi and determine GPS data. Another interesting app is Flickr has a database of CellTower locations setup and if you use their photo posting software from your cell phone(small number supported) they will tag the photo with the cell tower it came through - thus allowing you to have a geographical map of all the pictures you took. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 16:43:28 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:43:28 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> References: <45993D3C.4000200@fdcx.net> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2007, at 11:56 AM, Bob Mariotti wrote: > > Current services such at hop stop certainly allow one to plan out the > public transportation, but once in the area, its not much help. Also, > the POI database for the area would be a great convenience. Well, for the simple purpose of accessing public transportation info on the go, I use this on my Nokia E50 - http://www.nanika.net/metro/ -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 16:51:51 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:51:51 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070101215151.GT14507@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 01, 2007 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:52 -0500 > From: Geo. > To: full-disclosure at lists.grok.org.uk > Subject: [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered > > The other day I used my router to limit my Vista laptop from talking to > anything but one subnet on the internet. 3 days later suddenly some things > would not work. > > Solitaire failed to start, click on it and you get the magic donut showing > it's starting up then nothing. > > Right click on network and pick properties you get the magic donut showing > it's starting up then nothing. > > So I removed the routes so Vista could once again phone home and within a > minute or two both solitaire and network properties worked just fine. > > Now this Vista system is less than 30 days old and has already been > activated. So the claims that Reduced Function mode only kicks in if you > don't activate within 30 days is bunk if this is Reduced Function mode. > > So I decided to trigger RF mode on purpose to see how it responds. I stopped > the Software License service which claims that doing so will trigger RF > mode. 24 hours later solitaire, network properties, and control panel all > show the same behavior, the magic donut showing they are starting up then > nothing. No events in event log, nothing. > > I then started the Software License service and presto like magic these > functions work again. So I'm convinced that the machine being routed so it > can't talk to MS triggered RF mode within a few days. Now to me this seems > pretty clear even though it wasn't a real scientific method of testing. And > further, this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. I mean imagine > if MS fell off the planet we would have a pretty major problem as the bulk > of the worlds computers started shutting down, talk about a security issue? > > So anyone here with a bit more technical expertise want to pick up this ball > and run with it? > > Geo. Hi *, if this is indeed the scenario, then in essence there is single point of failure for all vista servers. Any concerted effort to DDOS this magic vista IP address will make billions of computers become useless. Works for me(tm). Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFmYJ3v8UcC1qRZVMRApLwAJ4y2lVysJqCh6NXH3lg+aL49DvdrQCfZ6kb YglsQ1WtPJjLB2zfuS4VxsM= =MwtD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 1 20:56:40 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:56:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20070101215151.GT14507@localhost> References: <20070101215151.GT14507@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, Kevin Mark wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, Jan 01, 2007 at 02:41:05PM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:52 -0500 >> From: Geo. >> To: full-disclosure at lists.grok.org.uk >> Subject: [Full-disclosure] Vista Reduced Function mode triggered >> >> The other day I used my router to limit my Vista laptop from talking to >> anything but one subnet on the internet. 3 days later suddenly some things >> would not work. >> >> Solitaire failed to start, click on it and you get the magic donut showing >> it's starting up then nothing. >> >> Right click on network and pick properties you get the magic donut showing >> it's starting up then nothing. >> >> So I removed the routes so Vista could once again phone home and within a >> minute or two both solitaire and network properties worked just fine. >> >> Now this Vista system is less than 30 days old and has already been >> activated. So the claims that Reduced Function mode only kicks in if you >> don't activate within 30 days is bunk if this is Reduced Function mode. >> >> So I decided to trigger RF mode on purpose to see how it responds. I stopped >> the Software License service which claims that doing so will trigger RF >> mode. 24 hours later solitaire, network properties, and control panel all >> show the same behavior, the magic donut showing they are starting up then >> nothing. No events in event log, nothing. >> >> I then started the Software License service and presto like magic these >> functions work again. So I'm convinced that the machine being routed so it >> can't talk to MS triggered RF mode within a few days. Now to me this seems >> pretty clear even though it wasn't a real scientific method of testing. And >> further, this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. I mean imagine >> if MS fell off the planet we would have a pretty major problem as the bulk >> of the worlds computers started shutting down, talk about a security issue? >> >> So anyone here with a bit more technical expertise want to pick up this ball >> and run with it? >> >> Geo. > Hi *, > if this is indeed the scenario, then in essence there is single point of > failure for all vista servers. Any concerted effort to DDOS this magic > vista IP address will make billions of computers become useless. Works > for me(tm). > Cheers, > Kev ;) oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 13:52:27 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:52:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > I personally like Tomtom's UI, rich navigation options and the > ability to make use of the available information. However, it does > have its own quirks. The POI database and the maps are far from being > called current. Lets you find a restaurant but you cant see its > telephone number to be able to call it to check if it still exists. > The nuvi has that option. I like the TomToms too but the nuvi is smaller and the design (fits into a shirt pocket) making it more portable (that curved back on the TomToms doesn't quite work so well in your pocket ;-) > For car navigation, a > friend uses a cheap ($99) external bluetooth gps receiver with the > tomtom software on his Treo. Works well, but then everyone does not > like carrying two devices. I did not mention in my last post that I have a Nokia 770 which has a Bluetooth car navigation kit available for it [1]. But what is really cool are two free apps that use GPS: GPSDrive [2] and Maemo Mapper [3]. GPSDrive is a GPS mapping app for Linux that has been ported to the 770 which can use a Bluetooth GPS device [4]. Maemo Mapper is similar except it can grab GPS data and then grab the corresponding map from Google Maps to display. Since there are no decent smartphones that (a) dont run Windows or PalmOS, and (b) have software as great as the old Psion machines, I have been looking to use the 770 as a PDA/surfing/ebook/mapping device. Did I mention the 770 runs Linux? ;-) As you pointed out though, the downside is having to carry an extra device... [1] http://tableteer.nokia.com [2] http://gpsdrive.kraftvoll.at/ [3] http://gnuite.com:8080/nokia770/maemo-mapper/ [4] http://nokia770.com/305 -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 13:56:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:56:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > Well, for the simple purpose of accessing public transportation info > on the go, I use this on my Nokia E50 - > > http://www.nanika.net/metro/ Weird - I once started working on a similar app for Symbian devices and I also called it Metro... Often subway maps are available as PDFs which you can carry on a flash card and open on a lot of mobile phones/devices devices these days (Im sure the Symbian devices have a PDF reader available). -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 14:19:09 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ezra Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:19:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down Message-ID: Hello people: Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? Ezra -- Ezra Taylor From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 14:21:36 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:21:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Ezra Taylor wrote: > Hello people: > Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? Works For Me. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From etamme surelynot optonline.net Tue Jan 2 14:31:31 2007 From: etamme surelynot optonline.net (etamme surelynot optonline.net) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 19:31:31 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <817877602-1167766360-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-1612699798-@bxe044-cell01.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Yes Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Ezra Taylor Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:19:09 To:NYLUG Technical Discussion Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down Hello people: Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? Ezra -- Ezra Taylor _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 14:35:57 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:35:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070102193557.GA38273@uws1.starlofashions.com> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 02:21:36PM -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Ezra Taylor wrote: > > > Hello people: > > Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? > > Works For Me. Working for me, from a business network with AT&T as provider, and also from my home machine, using nyc.rr.com. -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Willow: Xander, wanna stay and help me? Xander: Are you kidding? Willow: Yes, it was a joke I made up. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 14:42:03 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070102194203.GE18663@lenin.net> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 01:52:27PM -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > I like the TomToms too but the nuvi is smaller and the design (fits > into a shirt pocket) making it more portable (that curved back on the > TomToms doesn't quite work so well in your pocket ;-) I've got a nuvi350, and it's worked beautifully so far, at least within its limitations. Driving in the city from inwood to the JFK area was a breeze the other day, and while out in denver a couple of weeks ago everything worked great. The reason I went for the nuvi over a tom-tom or a pda combo is that I want my wife to be able to use it to walk around since she's still somewhat new to the city. Its hard to explain the geography of the area in words and I don't always have all the maps with me, so she can always see where we are/where we're going. It is easily held in the hand, and so far in my limited use it's got oddball behaviors like taking a strangely long time to lock-on in some areas (with full view of the sky) and not being able to have multiple waypoints or save a route. It really sucks that more access to the features of the device aren't available - just being able to save a route and some similar stuff would make a world of difference. It's ability to read off street names is fantastic (we kept missing turns in colorado until we found the voices to name streets, exit numbers, etc. Being told "turn in XXX feet" is very useless when you have 4 exits/streets/ramps etc. in a row coming up). -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 15:32:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Drew Davis) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 15:32:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> My SONY TJ37 has a PDF viewer in it, but when I downloaded a PDF file of the NYC subway map from the web to my memory stick, it wouldn't open in the PDA. There were no messages, but I figured it was something to do with memory limitations that kept it from opening even a peephole view of the big map. I have seen that there are iPOD downloads of the map - in the form of a zillion little tiles. I don't have an iPOD so I don't know how usable that version of the map is. I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the museum entrance on 5th Ave. I was impressed that it knew the Long Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. Drew On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 13:56 -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jan 2007, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > > > Well, for the simple purpose of accessing public transportation info > > on the go, I use this on my Nokia E50 - > > > > http://www.nanika.net/metro/ > > Weird - I once started working on a similar app for Symbian devices and I > also called it Metro... > > Often subway maps are available as PDFs which you can carry on a flash > card and open on a lot of mobile phones/devices devices these days (Im > sure the Symbian devices have a PDF reader available). > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 16:55:40 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:55:40 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> References: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20070102215540.GG18663@lenin.net> On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 03:32:52PM -0500, R. Drew Davis wrote: > I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows > connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC > bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the > Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. > that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 > changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the > museum entrance on 5th Ave. But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. > I was impressed that it knew the Long > Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, > it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to > take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to > Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending > on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station > along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from > Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes > too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. Send feedback to the author. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 2 17:03:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ezra Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:03:01 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Is irc.freenode.net down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your response. Its our network. I swear I used irc before at work. Anyway, take care all. Ezra On 1/2/07, Ezra Taylor wrote: > Hello people: > Are any of you able to connect to irc.freenode.net? > > > Ezra > > -- > Ezra Taylor > -- Ezra Taylor From wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net Tue Jan 2 23:27:34 2007 From: wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net (wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 04:27:34 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: "Peter C. Norton" > On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 03:32:52PM -0500, R. Drew Davis wrote: > > I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows > > connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC > > bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the > > Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. > > that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 > > changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the > > museum entrance on 5th Ave. > > But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. Yeah, I did that once. There was a couple in the back row who weren't waiting for their honeymoon. I wasn't the only one who went past my stop fascinated by what those two were doing with, for, next to, and occasionaly in spite of each other. I really don't understand this conversation. I'm from Los Angeles and live in Jersey and have never had a problem navigating in Manhattan or Brooklyn. In Manhattan, the streets are numbered. In Brooklyn they're either numbered (yeah, on incompatible grids) or sort of alphabetical, with the odd road with some silly historical or gratuitious name (who actually calls "Avenue of the Americas" that?). It would _help_ if numbering had a standard origin. In Los Angeles County, I can always find my way if I know which way is north and what the numbers are on the buildings (aside from a few "independent" municipalities like Pasadena) and know how far and what direction I am from the Los Angeles City Hall (what some of us call the Jack Webb Memorial). 1000 to the mile EW or NS. Extends for as much as thirty miles way out in Simi Valley. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader. Joseph Sobran From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 01:50:38 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 01:50:38 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2007, at 11:27 PM, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: >> But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. > > I really don't understand this conversation. I'm from Los Angeles > and live in Jersey and have never had a problem navigating in > Manhattan or Brooklyn. In Manhattan, the streets are numbered. In > Brooklyn they're either numbered (yeah, on incompatible grids) or > sort of alphabetical, Directions are not an issue for someone who knows the basic grid layout of the City. The problem is of being able to navigate using a combination of on-foot and public transportation system, as quickly as possible. When in a car, GPS systems can integrate traffic related information to re-route you to avoid roadblocks. If subways related information was included (information is already available easily), you could do the same with public transportation too. -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 09:21:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Richard Ibbotson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:21:42 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] OpenStreet Map Message-ID: <200701031421.45123.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Hi We've decided to have a go at this over here in Sheffield... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Sheffield Looking around the site I see that information for the New York area is scarce. I will most likely be coming out there later this year and could join in for a few hours of mapping activity if anyone in NY would like to organise a mapping event. Not sure of an exact date for travel just now. Was thinking that someone out there might be interested :) -- Richard www.sheflug.org.uk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 10:37:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 10:37:54 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Special New Year's Treat: Meeting dates through June 2007 Message-ID: <459BCDD2.8090409@nylug.org> NYLUG is pleased to be able to announce meeting dates for the first half of 2007, and extra pleased to be able to announce a return to the 3rd Wednesday of each month. January 17, 2007 (Wednesday) February 21, 2007 (Wednesday) March 21, 2007 (Wednesday) April 18, 2007 (Wednesday) May 16, 2007 (Wednesday) June 20, 2007 (Wednesday) Topics to be announced. Given that it's seemed to work out ok, we'll generally accept signups via the RSVP system early from now on also. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 11:43:04 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:43:04 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Preinstalled DRM In-Reply-To: <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <20061227230438.GP18663@lenin.net> <20061228030417.GA15070@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <4593BF27.4000303@saplings.us> <20061229044715.GA24261@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20061230163117.GE3773@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> > on Oracle's "Unbreakable" Linux. Oxymoron: So long as morons have oxygen then the system is breakable -- or so inflexable as to be nearly useless. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 11:46:21 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:46:21 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <4595C921.9030107@vnetworx.net> References: <456F19FB.7010706@vnetworx.net> <456F23AE.4050101@saplings.us> <458D8E26.9010406@vnetworx.net> <45955206.2080707@vnetworx.net> <4595A6DB.1080602@wrkhors.com> <4595C921.9030107@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> > That's as close to invisible as I think we can hope to get. I was > surprised by how much the RSVP list depressed attendance, and I believe > it's because a lot of people used to decide at the last minute to just > show up. In order to procure any suitable space for our meetings, we > have to have a list, so the primary goal for the list is to make it as > easy as possible to get on or off the list, and to deliver the list as > late as our hosts will allow. If it was up to me, you'd be able to > stand outside the building, and send a SMS message from your phone to > the RSVP list, and then walk into the building where they'd check your > name off on the screen instead of a piece of paper. That's probably not > going to happen, but functionally it would provide the same thing our > hosts get now, which is a list of everyone we're ask them to let into > their building. It's no less valid to have put yourself on the list > from their sidewalk than to have it added anywhere else, the security > aspect of things takes place when you show whatever the building is > accepting as identification, and that just (in theory) proves you're > someone whose name is on the list. (and I'm pretty sure nobody's ever > been turned away from our meetings for insufficient ID so long as they > brought *something* to show) Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing list or hitting up the website. This means that we have to get space based on an estimated group of people showing up, but that allows anyone who has signed up for pre-approval to Just Do It. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:02:23 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Richard Ibbotson) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:02:23 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Preinstalled DRM In-Reply-To: <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> References: <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <200701031702.24452.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Hmm... http://ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?id=1738 it's the quote at the bottom from Ballmer that made me smile :) -- Richard From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:05:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:05:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Steven Lembark wrote: > Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate > signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who > is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list > will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing > list or hitting up the website. Err.. didn't Ron just describe a system like this a few days ago? -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:08:58 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:08:58 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> References: <456F19FB.7010706@vnetworx.net> <456F23AE.4050101@saplings.us> <458D8E26.9010406@vnetworx.net> <45955206.2080707@vnetworx.net> <4595A6DB.1080602@wrkhors.com> <4595C921.9030107@vnetworx.net> <459BDDDD.7040805@wrkhors.com> Message-ID: <459BE32A.1020209@vnetworx.net> Steven Lembark wrote: > Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate > signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who > is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list > will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing > list or hitting up the website. We had a similar system in place for a number of years, but then one day IBM Security deemed it unacceptable. The way it used to work, once you were RSVP'd, you were always RSVP'd. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:16:03 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:16:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <1167769972.4799.20.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > My SONY TJ37 Refresh my memory: didn't Sony stop production of the Clie (when I first came to NYC, I worked for a PDA seller...). > has a PDF viewer in it, but when I downloaded a PDF file of > the NYC subway map from the web to my memory stick, it wouldn't open in > the PDA. There were no messages, but I figured it was something to do > with memory limitations that kept it from opening even a peephole view > of the big map. I sometimes come across this problem too. I can open a PDF of the NYC subway map on my 770 but not a PDF of the London subway map - go figure. An expensive alternative is to find a really really small PC like the OQO (oqo.com) which has more memory and beefier processor. > I have seen that there are iPOD downloads of the map - in the form of a > zillion little tiles. I don't have an iPOD so I don't know how usable > that version of the map is. I suppose you could easily dump a GIF on a mobile device (though, zooming in on a GIF image means you lose detail (compared to a vector format like PDF which will rescale everything and still look crisp). > I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows > connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC > bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the > Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. > that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 > changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the > museum entrance on 5th Ave. I was impressed that it knew the Long > Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, > it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to > take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to > Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending > on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station > along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from > Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes > too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. Yep - the current state of the art in AI would still probably be less able than a human brain (assuming that kind of processing is available on phones/mobile devices ;-) -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:16:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <20070102215540.GG18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Peter C. Norton wrote: > But far faster. You can spend all day on the m4. Ah, but some of us are quite willing to trade speed for the view :-) -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:19:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:19:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459BE5A6.9050809@vnetworx.net> Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Steven Lembark wrote: > >> Alternative approach: Use the mailing list (or some separate >> signup) as a pre-approved RSVP list. Anyone who shows up who >> is on the pre-approved list gets in; anyone not on the list >> will have to get onto the list by either joining the mailing >> list or hitting up the website. > > Err.. didn't Ron just describe a system like this a few days ago? Not exactly, but close. The problem is (as always) in the details. Based on past experience, as I think I noted before, the rules will inevitably tighten and loosen as the paranoia level in the city rises and falls. The system has to be designed to roll with the punches, which is why I seem to be going to great lengths to make it easy to attend, when simpler measures would seem to make more sense. I can't make the list go away, and there's only a little bit of give-and-take when you're getting donated space from people who also have rules to live with. But I can try to make meeting attendance as spontaneous as possible within the limitations of the meeting spaces, whether under ideal, or less than ideal facilities access policies. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:08:47 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Steven Lembark) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:08:47 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Running a FOSS project In-Reply-To: <20061226194611.GO18663@lenin.net> References: <45913A46.9010608@sccs.swarthmore.edu> <20061226162840.GN18663@lenin.net> <20061226194611.GO18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <459BE31F.1000609@wrkhors.com> >>> I think if you're going for a BSD-like license, you should be OK >>> asking contributers (as you did me) the first time or two if the >>> license is OK, and after that getting them to sign off on future >>> contributions until further notice. >> As a follow-up, suppose I include a patch in SVN and later learn that the >> contributor does not wish the code to be licensed under a BSD-like license >> -- is it sufficient to remove the code from SVN trunk, or would i need to >> remove all traces of it from the repository? > > That's up to the contributor. However if they ask you to remove it, > you have to remove it from anywhere people could access it via you, as > the distributor, making it available. Which is difficult to do with SVN: You'd have to regenerate the entire repository. A better approach might be to say up front that backing code out of the project will only affect versions after the request is handed in -- the old versions are still under their original aggreement which did have an item in the repository. Another way to say it is that backing out of the project is not retroactive. -- Steven Lembark 85-09 90th Street Workhorse Computing Woodhaven, NY 11421 lembark at wrkhors.com +1 888 359 3508 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 12:26:07 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:26:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <010320070427.13885.459B30B6000B63110000363D22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > I really don't understand this conversation. I'm from Los Angeles and > live in Jersey and have never had a problem navigating in Manhattan or > Brooklyn. In Manhattan, the streets are numbered. In Brooklyn they're > either numbered (yeah, on incompatible grids) or sort of alphabetical, > with the odd road with some silly historical or gratuitious name (who > actually calls "Avenue of the Americas" that?). For the most part I agree but somewhere south of Houston that nice scheme breaks down. Also, what about streets that are one-way but change to two-way for part of the time? (3rd Avenue springs to mind). If you're driving that's a real pain to deal with. And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned :-) My biggest problem with travelling by any surface vehicle in the US is the fact that your signs are just awful. Crap in fact. Directions are not clear (or non-existent in a lot of cases). Also, knowing that there's a street fair several blocks ahead of time would be bloody useful - instead you just hit a road block where the entire traffic flow is trying to make a detour down a street not designed to carry that many lanes of traffic... -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 14:13:03 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:13:03 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system Message-ID: <14e60b050701031113y413e7dbbw63543f20a7338c6f@mail.gmail.com> > But I can try to make meeting attendance as spontaneous as > possible within the limitations of the meeting spaces, Why would you want to make a meeting spontaneous? Steve M From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 14:20:41 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:20:41 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> I would much rather have spent the time familiarizing myself with the local geography and metro public transportation system. There is a multifold benefit with learning the local surroundings of the destination your going to. One is it is a great opportunity to learn some local history, another is you have an idea of where you are in case you feel like you are in a threatening neighborhood. Good excerize for the brain is another reason. I used to travel to different part of this part of the northeast using nothing but public transportation and amtrak maps. Computers are fun but they can't provide a 'rich' experience no matter how talented the programmer may be. Steve M ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I took a look at MetrO last night. Pretty spiffy, but it knows connectivity, not schedules, and it doesn't know at all about the NYC bus routes. I asked it how to get from Penn Station to the Metropolitan Museum and instead of sending me to the M4 bus at 32nd St. that drops you off at 83rd and Madison, it sent me via subway, with 2 changes of train, to 86th and Lexington, a bit more of a walk from the museum entrance on 5th Ave. I was impressed that it knew the Long Island Railroad stations, but again, without it knowing the schedule, it's advice for getting to Westbury from Penn Station is strictly to take the train to Westbury. There are twice as many trains to Hicksville, and often the right choice, if you are in a hurry, depending on the time of day is to take the train to Hicksville, the next station along the line, after Westbury, and then double-back on the bus from Hicksville station back into Westbury. I guess I was setting my hopes too high for what MetrO would "know" for me. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 14:24:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Dan Crosta) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:24:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031113y413e7dbbw63543f20a7338c6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031113y413e7dbbw63543f20a7338c6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459C0304.9090904@sccs.swarthmore.edu> sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Why would you want to make a meeting spontaneous? I think the goal was to allow people to spontaneously decide to attend a meeting as soon before the meeting as possible -- within the constraints of what IBM allows. - d From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 14:27:30 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:27:30 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> > For the most part I agree but somewhere south of Houston that nice scheme > breaks down. Also, what about streets that are one-way but change to > two-way for part of the time? (3rd Avenue springs to mind). If you're > driving that's a real pain to deal with. No big deal, just learn to adapt real quick, I grew up here and drove into Manhattan many times at various parts of the day. This was before drivers became courteous due to the price of gas. There is a certain resilient skill set a person picks up being subjected to a stressful environment like driving in Manhattan during rush hour. > My biggest problem with travelling by any surface vehicle in the US is the > fact that your signs are just awful. Crap in fact. Thats pure baloney, I've driven across the US numerous times into destinations I have never been to and the signs are actually far more straightforward than I gave them credit for. Very often I gave the signs more credit than they deserved in terms of being complicated and as a result got lost because I thought I knew better than the sign. > Directions are not > clear (or non-existent in a lot of cases). Also, knowing that there's a > street fair several blocks ahead of time would be bloody useful - instead > you just hit a road block where the entire traffic flow is trying to make > a detour down a street not designed to carry that many lanes of traffic... Why drive into Manhattan anyway. Steve M From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 14:29:45 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:29:45 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system Message-ID: <14e60b050701031129w5d9d1a2es9fddda27b7ed4a59@mail.gmail.com> Sounds like a dynamically static idea. Steve M > I think the goal was to allow people to spontaneously decide to attend a meeting > as soon before the meeting as possible -- within the constraints of what IBM allows. > > - d From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 14:39:22 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ah Pook) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:39:22 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701031439.23291.ahpook@verizon.net> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 2:27 pm, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > My biggest problem with travelling by any surface vehicle in the US > > is the fact that your signs are just awful. Crap in fact. > > Thats pure baloney, I've driven across the US numerous times into > destinations I have never been to > and the signs are actually far more straightforward than I gave them > credit for. Very often I gave the signs more credit than they > deserved in terms of being complicated and as > a result got lost because I thought I knew better than the sign. One of my favourite memories of Cuba is driving down the highway and seeing a big sign frame - it obviously signified something, once, but no sign remained, just the frame. But that was OK, because there was a guy standing there available to provide directions. US signs are certainly crap though, with NY being among the worst. Part of that is because there are just so many of them, and the "system" seems to be to just add new ones rather than any kind of cleanup. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 15:27:37 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:27:37 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:26, Ajai Khattri wrote: > And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land invasion ... haha ... -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 15:53:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (H. G.) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:53:08 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <60131f920701031253x58b480a4m8cdb0221a97ead38@mail.gmail.com> On 1/3/07, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:26, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > > And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned > > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out > by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... > > -- > Sunny Dubey > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > I absofrickenlutely agree with this. It seems as though they were rolling dice to decide where to place random dead ends, and they were quite liberal in sprinkling in streets that just reverse upon one themselves (ie., you're going down an one way street and suddenly find yourself facing another one way street.........coming opposite your direction.) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 15:55:22 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:55:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Last Call: NYLUG RSVP system In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031129w5d9d1a2es9fddda27b7ed4a59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Sounds like a dynamically static idea. Not really. Imagine not being able to attend a meeting but then on the day of the meeting your circumstances change so you now you CAN attend the meeting. We want to be able to allow a person to register an hour or two before the event and still be able to attend. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:12:30 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:12:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... I blame the Dutch ;-) -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:16:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:16:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Thats pure baloney, I've driven across the US numerous times into > destinations I have never been to > and the signs are actually far more straightforward than I gave them credit for. > Very often I gave the signs more credit than they deserved in terms of > being complicated and as > a result got lost because I thought I knew better than the sign. I, of course, am comparing NY/NJ with driving in Europe, which is pretty straightforward most of the time. Another point, its very easy to make a U-turn in the UK for example, because every major intersection allows you to do that - I cannot say the same of driving in the US, so if you DO get lost it might take awhile to get back to the last known location. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:20:24 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ajai Khattri) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:20:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Computers are fun but they can't provide a 'rich' experience no matter > how talented the programmer may be. True to a certain extent but what about combining location with local traffic flow information? Or local events too - knowing that there's a street fair on Park Avenue near Union Square would be good to know even if you ARE using public transport (since a bus would be making the same detour). Computers are good for that kind of mashup of related data. -- Aj. (ajai at bitblit.net) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:37:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <200701031527.38211.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <459C221E.3050406@darose.net> Sunny Dubey wrote: > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... I always laugh at how Queens will often have streets like 67th Road, 67th Street, 67th Avenue, etc. all within a few blocks of each other. I don't think they could possibly have thought up a more confusing street numbering scheme if they tried!!! DR From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:39:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:39:08 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459C227C.4050100@darose.net> Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by >> total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land >> invasion ... > > > I blame the Dutch ;-) "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures ... and the Dutch. " lol DR From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:45:37 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jim McBride) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <20070103214537.44713.qmail@web56412.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Simple to remember in Queens. Avenues, Roads and Drives ALL run parallel to each other. Streets, Places and Lanes ALL run parallel to each other (not/never with the above). Also for house numbers as the numbers increase the even numbers are ALWAYS on your left hand side. The streets were rename sometime in the early thirties (Rawson Street - 33rd Street) on the number 7 line is one example. Handy to remember. ----- Original Message ---- From: David Rosenstrauch To: NYLUG Technical Discussion Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 4:37:34 PM Subject: Re: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Sunny Dubey wrote: > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... I always laugh at how Queens will often have streets like 67th Road, 67th Street, 67th Avenue, etc. all within a few blocks of each other. I don't think they could possibly have thought up a more confusing street numbering scheme if they tried!!! DR _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 16:54:20 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Mark) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:54:20 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701031654.20684.phantom21@mindspring.com> On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:16, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > > My SONY TJ37 > > Refresh my memory: didn't Sony stop production of the Clie (when I first > came to NYC, I worked for a PDA seller...). > As I understand it, they didn't stop manufacturing it, they stopped selling it in the US. You can still buy them in Japan. Mark From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 17:02:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:02:08 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031120p5710c810ob24ea7dd183bcd8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070103220208.GH18663@lenin.net> On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 02:20:41PM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > I would much rather have spent the time familiarizing myself with the > local geography > and metro public transportation system. There is a multifold benefit > with learning the local > surroundings of the destination your going to. > One is it is a great opportunity to learn some local history, another > is you have an idea of > where you are in case you feel like you are in a threatening > neighborhood. Good excerize for the brain > is another reason. I used to travel to different part of this part of > the northeast using nothing but > public transportation and amtrak maps. > Computers are fun but they can't provide a 'rich' experience no matter > how talented the programmer may be. Have you looked at wikimapia at all? It can certianly enhance the experience in this area, where buildings change names with their corporate overloards (I miss the pan am building) and history is lost in favor of billboards, posters and whatever else can be painted bright and glued, stapled, or rigged high and low. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 17:04:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:04:33 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701031127k6395e6dcw7c4ad117fdfb2897@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070103220433.GI18663@lenin.net> On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 02:27:30PM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > For the most part I agree but somewhere south of Houston that nice scheme > > breaks down. Also, what about streets that are one-way but change to > > two-way for part of the time? (3rd Avenue springs to mind). If you're > > driving that's a real pain to deal with. > > No big deal, just learn to adapt real quick, I grew up here and drove > into Manhattan > many times at various parts of the day. You grew up here. Other people do not have the years to grow up again nearby to do this. So Steve, go somewhere else to troll. Your bitterness, curmudgeon-ness, and inability to look at someone else's point of view doesn't come off as funny or whimsical, just as trolling. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 17:16:46 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:16:46 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031416s7e4ef5b3od966754fd10daf86@mail.gmail.com> > One of my favourite memories of Cuba is driving down the highway and > seeing a big sign frame - it obviously signified something, once, but > no sign remained, just the frame. But that was OK, because there was a > guy standing there available to provide directions. That sounds like such a communist solution; employ the people, let the infrastructure rot. > US signs are certainly crap though, with NY being among the worst. Nope they are not, I'm guessing you havent traveled much in the US by car. > Part of that is because there are just so many of them, and the "system" > seems to be to just add new ones rather than any kind of cleanup. What kind of cleanup do you think is necessary? Or maybe its just that NYC is congested? Actually to back pedal a little I'd say NJ has some of the worst signs and driving restrictions in the US. It's impossible to make a u-turn because of all, you can barely see the street signs at night. I'd say NYC has some of the best street signs in the nation, they are large enough to be seen at night and have reflectors. Steve M From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 17:22:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 17:22:59 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <14e60b050701031422t156249c1s716437c1fa2fe0ec@mail.gmail.com> > I, of course, am comparing NY/NJ with driving in Europe, which is pretty > straightforward most of the time. Another point, its very easy to make a > U-turn in the UK for example, because every major intersection allows you > to do that - I cannot say the same of driving in the US, so if you DO get > lost it might take awhile to get back to the last known location. NY and NJ are two different driving environments, in NJ you have to get to the next intersection to just turn around. The next intersection could be a mile down the road. Making a u-turn in Brooklyn is sometimes improvised right in the middle of a the street. European streets are generally very narrow, just enough room for Roman chariots, driving in many part of Europe is generally like driving in Manhattan. Usually you need a pretty compelling reason to drive in Manhattan. Steve M From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 3 19:35:51 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 19:35:51 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <1167870951.16894.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 16:20 -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > > invasion ... > > > I blame the Dutch ;-) The Dutch are blameless this time. Perhaps this will help: http://www.ellisparkerbutler.info/epb/biblio.asp?id=3405 In Queens to find locations best -- Avenues, Roads and Drives run West; But ways to North and South, 'tis plain Are Street or Place or even lane; While even numbers you will meet Upon the West and South of Street. Consider the alternative: http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Town/Streets/Queens.Street.changes.html From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 4 01:24:31 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Shakthi Kannan) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 06:24:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [nylug-talk] OpenStreet Map In-Reply-To: <200701031421.45123.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Message-ID: <282968.16951.qm@web8606.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi, --- Richard Ibbotson wrote: > Looking around the site I see that information for > the New York area > is scarce. You might also want to look at: http://www.freemap.in/ SK -- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 4 02:44:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Drew Davis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 02:44:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167896673.5073.120.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 12:16 -0500, Ajai Khattri wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > > > My SONY TJ37 > > Refresh my memory: didn't Sony stop production of the Clie (when I first > came to NYC, I worked for a PDA seller...). Sigh, yes. They discontinued all their PalmOS PDA's. There still seems to be a brisk interest in them on eBay. > > has a PDF viewer in it, but when I downloaded a PDF file of > > the NYC subway map from the web to my memory stick, it wouldn't open in > > the PDA. There were no messages, but I figured it was something to do > > with memory limitations that kept it from opening even a peephole view > > of the big map. > > I sometimes come across this problem too. I can open a PDF of the NYC > subway map on my 770 but not a PDF of the London subway map - go figure. > > An expensive alternative is to find a really really small PC like the OQO > (oqo.com) which has more memory and beefier processor. A really small PC is still a really big PDA. Drew From wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net Thu Jan 4 08:43:56 2007 From: wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net (wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:43:56 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] OT - city wide GPS question??? Message-ID: <010420071343.24354.459D049C0007308F00005F2222058891160B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: Sunny Dubey > On Wednesday 03 January 2007 12:26, Ajai Khattri wrote: > > > And Brooklyn is a different country as far as Im concerned > > Brooklyn has nothing on Queens. The streets of Queens were either laid out by > total drunks, or brilliantly laid out to prevent from some sort land > invasion ... > > haha ... Not as bad as Irvine, CA. Whoever laid out the streets there was on powerful drugs. So was whoever numbered the buildings on those streets. But they were not on the same drugs. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader. Joseph Sobran From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 05:01:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:01:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: Articles X-URL: http://community.linux.com/print.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 Linux.com The Enterprise Linux Resource http://community.linux.com/ Title How to get a Windows tax refund Date 2007.01.05 13:02 Author StoneLion Topic http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 If you buy a computer, you often pay for Microsoft Windows even if you didn't ask for it and aren't going to use it. This article shows you how to return your unused Windows license and get your money back, freeing yourself from the Windows tax. I recently purchased a new laptop computer from Dell. As a GNU/Linux user and believer in Free Software, I knew from the start that I wasn't going to run Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, Dell didn't offer this laptop with Ubuntu or a no-OS option, so I tried getting my Windows refund from Dell after the purchase. After working with customer service, I received a refund of $52.50. In the course of getting my refund, I found some techniques worked better than others. By knowing what works, you may be able to get your refund quickly and easily. Be prepared and set realistic expectations Before you go down this route, be prepared. Getting your Windows refund may take several hours of work, after which you'll get a small amount of money -- nowhere near the full retail price of Windows on the store shelf. Though your win may be more of a victory for principle than your pocketbook, it is possible to win, and you'll have made an important stand. Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified. Ideally you'll plan on getting your Windows refund before placing your order with the vendor. If you are ordering a new machine, first call the vendor to see if they offer a no-OS option. If they do, use it. If the machine does not come without an installed OS and you have to buy Windows, purchase the lowest-end Windows that you can. In my case, that meant buying the computer with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition. When your computer arrives, document each step of unloading your computer. I took a tip from UK reporter Dave Mitchell, who received a Windows refund from Dell, and took pictures of myself at each step of the process, including opening the box and each and every page of the Microsoft EULA. I zoomed in on the relevant section about returning the license to the vendor. I also zoomed in on the radio button which says "Do Not Accept" and showed myself rejecting the license. This will add some time to your initial computer use, but is proof that you read and rejected the license. Before you make the call, have everything you need in front of you. You should have all the details of your order, including the order number, date purchased, and even your credit card number. You should have the computer's serial number and, in the case of Dell, its Express Service Code. Later in the process, you may need your Windows Certificate of Authenticity (COA) key. It's on the holographic label usually found on the bottom of the laptop. You might find it easier to just have the laptop itself handy. You'll also want to have the text of the EULA ready. You probably don't need the entire thing, but the specific wording about returning Windows to the vendor may become key. Lastly, you're going to want to have a pen and paper ready. If your phone is wireless, you'll want to be sure it's fully charged, and keep a beverage handy -- you could be on the phone a while. Preparing for the call By this time in the process, you're probably itching to get on the phone, get on your soapbox, and get your refund. Resist the urge. Remember that you're looking to exercise a legal right. You're not going to change anyone's mind about Free Software, and any extra time you spend in the process only takes you further from your goal. Be polite. A customer service representative is used to handling dozens of issues a day, but your issue is going to be outside the norm. The person on the other end of the phone is your representation on the company's side, so you want to keep him or her as happy as possible. Don't get angry, don't yell, don't be rude. If things become tense, disarm the situation with kindness, and, if it's appropriate, a joke. You will be put on hold. Dell is fairly good about not leaving folks on hold (especially business customers), but I was put on hold a number of times. There's nothing you can do about it, so just be polite and accept it. What you're asking for is so unusual that they'll probably need to call supervisors. Let them. Expect excuses. They're going to look for ways not to give you the refund. After all, they've never heard of this, so it must be impossible. My first customer service rep said that he couldn't refund my license because I wasn't charged for it. If you hear something like this, don't be discouraged, and don't take it as the final word. I'll tell you how to counter these sorts of arguments in a moment. Don't argue, escalate. If you find you're not getting anywhere with your customer service representative, or you're going over the same point several times, it's time to escalate. Remember our previous guideline of not being rude. You can ask to be transferred without making it into a confrontation. Be sympathetic: "I see that you're trying your best, but that you're not able to do anything else for me. Would it be possible for you to transfer me to someone else?" Be persistent. You'll probably have to speak with several people, repeat yourself, and hear lots of excuses about how you're not entitled to what you're asking for. You're in the right, and as long as you're in the pipeline, you're making progress. When you're not making any more progress, escalate. Don't settle. At several points in my communications with customer service, I was offered coupons, even in excess of what I was asking for, but coupons aren't money. Politely explain that you're looking for a refund in cash (or credit back to your credit card). Use the precedents. If you're in the UK, you can mention reporter Dave Mitchell as someone whose already received a Windows refund. If you're in the US, you can use me. If they've given refunds to the two of us, why not you? During the call, you may find that the customer service representative will come back to you with several excuses about why you're not entitled to your refund. I've compiled a list of them, some which I heard and others which I didn't, and good responses to them. "You can't return the operating system because the computer can't work without it." That's the easiest argument to counter. Explain that you run GNU/Linux (or FreeBSD, or whatever operating system you've replaced Windows with). "You didn't pay anything for Windows." Since the price of Windows was included in the price of the computer, they may try to argue that you didn't pay anything for it. This one is easy to debunk. Windows costs money -- everyone knows that. Once you establish that Windows does indeed cost money (and you can't get it for free) then the only remaining issue is how much you paid. Since Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50. I don't know if this is really how much Windows costs, but it's a non-trivial amount and I can well imagine that one of the world's largest computer makers can get a good deal on Windows licenses from Microsoft. "You bought the bundle." They may tell your purchase was a bundle, that Windows came on the computer as a packaged set and you can't return one without the other. What you have on your side to counter this is the license itself, which says that you may choose to not accept the license and return it to the vendor. No matter what they say regarding a bundle, the legal wording of the license is clear. I heard the B word several times, and each time I explained the terms of the license to them, with the license wording at hand in case I needed to quote it verbatim. If the customer representative tries to cut the conversation short saying it's a bundle, stay polite, but explain that the license is quite clear and that you're just going by the legal wording and exercising your right to return the operating system. "How about a coupon?" I was offered coupons several times. I'm guessing that coupons are easy to give to customers as a way to keep them happy. While you're rejecting the coupons, realize that this is a small victory. All you have to do at that point is ask for cash. "You need to return the CD." As a condition to getting my Windows refund, I was required to give the COA key to the customer representative and return the Windows CD itself. Dell was kind enough to pay for shipping of the CD, so all I had to pay for was the envelope. Your vendor may not be as generous regarding the shipping, but by this time, you've won. You win - or not If you're not working with Dell, you may not have the same success. In this case, you might need to take another tack. Small claims court may be an option. You file paperwork with the court, pay a small fee, and show up in court with all your documentation. You'll need to make your case quickly and succinctly. You may also want to contact the Better Business Bureau for help. Many reputable businesses take the BBB seriously and may be more willing to work with you after it has contacted them. In any case, you'll be spending time and money to resolve the issue, but so will the vendor, so they're likely to look for an amiable solution as quickly as possible. To summarize: * You're only eligible for a refund on new computers * Document everything * Be prepared * Be polite * Be persistent * Be gracious If you follow these guidelines, you're likely to come out with a working computer without the Windows tax. I would be remiss if I did not offer a special thank you to Dell. Despite my initial difficulties, Dell eventually came through. After hearing stories on the Net about folks having to bring their vendor to small claims court, I'm happy I picked a company with reasonable policies and people. I especially want to thank Seema, the floor manager who worked with me on my case and offered me the refund. Links _________________________________________________________________ 1. "Dave Mitchell" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm 2. "Small claims court may be an option" - http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 _________________________________________________________________ ? Copyright 2007 - LiNUX.COM, All Rights Reserved _________________________________________________________________ printed from Linux.com, How to get a Windows tax refund on 2007-01-06 09:58:49 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 11:02:57 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:02:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Subject: Articles > X-URL: http://community.linux.com/print.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > > Linux.com > The Enterprise Linux Resource > http://community.linux.com/ > > Title How to get a Windows tax refund > Date 2007.01.05 13:02 > Author StoneLion > Topic > > http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > If you buy a computer, you often pay for Microsoft Windows even if you > didn't ask for it and aren't going to use it. This article shows you > how to return your unused Windows license and get your money back, > freeing yourself from the Windows tax. > > I recently purchased a new laptop computer from Dell. As a GNU/Linux > user and believer in Free Software, I knew from the start that I > wasn't going to run Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, Dell didn't > offer this laptop with Ubuntu or a no-OS option, so I tried getting my > Windows refund from Dell after the purchase. After working with > customer service, I received a refund of $52.50. In the course of > getting my refund, I found some techniques worked better than others. > By knowing what works, you may be able to get your refund quickly and > easily. > > Be prepared and set realistic expectations > > Before you go down this route, be prepared. Getting your Windows > refund may take several hours of work, after which you'll get a small > amount of money -- nowhere near the full retail price of Windows on > the store shelf. Though your win may be more of a victory for > principle than your pocketbook, it is possible to win, and you'll have > made an important stand. > > Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've > booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the > Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified. Ideally you'll plan on getting > your Windows refund before placing your order with the vendor. If you > are ordering a new machine, first call the vendor to see if they offer > a no-OS option. If they do, use it. If the machine does not come > without an installed OS and you have to buy Windows, purchase the > lowest-end Windows that you can. In my case, that meant buying the > computer with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition. > > When your computer arrives, document each step of unloading your > computer. I took a tip from UK reporter Dave Mitchell, who received a > Windows refund from Dell, and took pictures of myself at each step of > the process, including opening the box and each and every page of the > Microsoft EULA. I zoomed in on the relevant section about returning > the license to the vendor. I also zoomed in on the radio button which > says "Do Not Accept" and showed myself rejecting the license. This > will add some time to your initial computer use, but is proof that you > read and rejected the license. > > Before you make the call, have everything you need in front of you. > You should have all the details of your order, including the order > number, date purchased, and even your credit card number. You should > have the computer's serial number and, in the case of Dell, its > Express Service Code. Later in the process, you may need your Windows > Certificate of Authenticity (COA) key. It's on the holographic label > usually found on the bottom of the laptop. You might find it easier to > just have the laptop itself handy. > > You'll also want to have the text of the EULA ready. You probably > don't need the entire thing, but the specific wording about returning > Windows to the vendor may become key. > > Lastly, you're going to want to have a pen and paper ready. If your > phone is wireless, you'll want to be sure it's fully charged, and keep > a beverage handy -- you could be on the phone a while. > > Preparing for the call > > By this time in the process, you're probably itching to get on the > phone, get on your soapbox, and get your refund. Resist the urge. > Remember that you're looking to exercise a legal right. You're not > going to change anyone's mind about Free Software, and any extra time > you spend in the process only takes you further from your goal. > > Be polite. A customer service representative is used to handling > dozens of issues a day, but your issue is going to be outside the > norm. The person on the other end of the phone is your representation > on the company's side, so you want to keep him or her as happy as > possible. Don't get angry, don't yell, don't be rude. If things become > tense, disarm the situation with kindness, and, if it's appropriate, a > joke. > > You will be put on hold. Dell is fairly good about not leaving folks > on hold (especially business customers), but I was put on hold a > number of times. There's nothing you can do about it, so just be > polite and accept it. What you're asking for is so unusual that > they'll probably need to call supervisors. Let them. > > Expect excuses. They're going to look for ways not to give you the > refund. After all, they've never heard of this, so it must be > impossible. My first customer service rep said that he couldn't refund > my license because I wasn't charged for it. If you hear something like > this, don't be discouraged, and don't take it as the final word. I'll > tell you how to counter these sorts of arguments in a moment. > > Don't argue, escalate. If you find you're not getting anywhere with > your customer service representative, or you're going over the same > point several times, it's time to escalate. Remember our previous > guideline of not being rude. You can ask to be transferred without > making it into a confrontation. Be sympathetic: "I see that you're > trying your best, but that you're not able to do anything else for me. > Would it be possible for you to transfer me to someone else?" > > Be persistent. You'll probably have to speak with several people, > repeat yourself, and hear lots of excuses about how you're not > entitled to what you're asking for. You're in the right, and as long > as you're in the pipeline, you're making progress. When you're not > making any more progress, escalate. > > Don't settle. At several points in my communications with customer > service, I was offered coupons, even in excess of what I was asking > for, but coupons aren't money. Politely explain that you're looking > for a refund in cash (or credit back to your credit card). > > Use the precedents. If you're in the UK, you can mention reporter Dave > Mitchell as someone whose already received a Windows refund. If you're > in the US, you can use me. If they've given refunds to the two of us, > why not you? > > During the call, you may find that the customer service representative > will come back to you with several excuses about why you're not > entitled to your refund. I've compiled a list of them, some which I > heard and others which I didn't, and good responses to them. > > "You can't return the operating system because the computer can't work > without it." > > That's the easiest argument to counter. Explain that you run GNU/Linux > (or FreeBSD, or whatever operating system you've replaced Windows > with). > > "You didn't pay anything for Windows." > > Since the price of Windows was included in the price of the computer, > they may try to argue that you didn't pay anything for it. This one is > easy to debunk. Windows costs money -- everyone knows that. Once you > establish that Windows does indeed cost money (and you can't get it > for free) then the only remaining issue is how much you paid. Since > Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way > to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, > I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that > I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50. I > don't know if this is really how much Windows costs, but it's a > non-trivial amount and I can well imagine that one of the world's > largest computer makers can get a good deal on Windows licenses from > Microsoft. > > "You bought the bundle." > > They may tell your purchase was a bundle, that Windows came on the > computer as a packaged set and you can't return one without the other. > What you have on your side to counter this is the license itself, > which says that you may choose to not accept the license and return it > to the vendor. No matter what they say regarding a bundle, the legal > wording of the license is clear. I heard the B word several times, and > each time I explained the terms of the license to them, with the > license wording at hand in case I needed to quote it verbatim. If the > customer representative tries to cut the conversation short saying > it's a bundle, stay polite, but explain that the license is quite > clear and that you're just going by the legal wording and exercising > your right to return the operating system. > > "How about a coupon?" > > I was offered coupons several times. I'm guessing that coupons are > easy to give to customers as a way to keep them happy. While you're > rejecting the coupons, realize that this is a small victory. All you > have to do at that point is ask for cash. > > "You need to return the CD." > > As a condition to getting my Windows refund, I was required to give > the COA key to the customer representative and return the Windows CD > itself. Dell was kind enough to pay for shipping of the CD, so all I > had to pay for was the envelope. Your vendor may not be as generous > regarding the shipping, but by this time, you've won. > > You win - or not > > If you're not working with Dell, you may not have the same success. In > this case, you might need to take another tack. Small claims court may > be an option. You file paperwork with the court, pay a small fee, and > show up in court with all your documentation. You'll need to make your > case quickly and succinctly. You may also want to contact the Better > Business Bureau for help. Many reputable businesses take the BBB > seriously and may be more willing to work with you after it has > contacted them. In any case, you'll be spending time and money to > resolve the issue, but so will the vendor, so they're likely to look > for an amiable solution as quickly as possible. > > To summarize: > * You're only eligible for a refund on new computers > * Document everything > * Be prepared > * Be polite > * Be persistent > * Be gracious > > If you follow these guidelines, you're likely to come out with a > working computer without the Windows tax. > > I would be remiss if I did not offer a special thank you to Dell. > Despite my initial difficulties, Dell eventually came through. After > hearing stories on the Net about folks having to bring their vendor to > small claims court, I'm happy I picked a company with reasonable > policies and people. I especially want to thank Seema, the floor > manager who worked with me on my case and offered me the refund. > > Links > _________________________________________________________________ > > 1. "Dave Mitchell" - > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm > 2. "Small claims court may be an option" - > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 > _________________________________________________________________ > > ? Copyright 2007 - LiNUX.COM, All Rights Reserved > _________________________________________________________________ > > printed from Linux.com, How to get a Windows tax refund on 2007-01-06 > 09:58:49 > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > Hello! Well done Jay. However that does not cover one unique issue. Dell does indeed sell a no OS machine. You just need to insist on asking for it. Its a specie of Dell Dimension that's currently available. There was an entry for it in Linux Journal sometime last year. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 15:26:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 15:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Subject: Articles > X-URL: http://community.linux.com/print.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > > Linux.com > The Enterprise Linux Resource > http://community.linux.com/ > > Title How to get a Windows tax refund > Date 2007.01.05 13:02 > Author StoneLion > Topic > > http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 > > If you buy a computer, you often pay for Microsoft Windows even if you > didn't ask for it and aren't going to use it. This article shows you > how to return your unused Windows license and get your money back, > freeing yourself from the Windows tax. > > I recently purchased a new laptop computer from Dell. As a GNU/Linux > user and believer in Free Software, I knew from the start that I > wasn't going to run Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, Dell didn't > offer this laptop with Ubuntu or a no-OS option, so I tried getting my > Windows refund from Dell after the purchase. After working with > customer service, I received a refund of $52.50. In the course of > getting my refund, I found some techniques worked better than others. > By knowing what works, you may be able to get your refund quickly and > easily. > > Be prepared and set realistic expectations > > Before you go down this route, be prepared. Getting your Windows > refund may take several hours of work, after which you'll get a small > amount of money -- nowhere near the full retail price of Windows on > the store shelf. Though your win may be more of a victory for > principle than your pocketbook, it is possible to win, and you'll have > made an important stand. > > Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've > booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the > Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified. Ideally you'll plan on getting > your Windows refund before placing your order with the vendor. If you > are ordering a new machine, first call the vendor to see if they offer > a no-OS option. If they do, use it. If the machine does not come > without an installed OS and you have to buy Windows, purchase the > lowest-end Windows that you can. In my case, that meant buying the > computer with Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition. > > When your computer arrives, document each step of unloading your > computer. I took a tip from UK reporter Dave Mitchell, who received a > Windows refund from Dell, and took pictures of myself at each step of > the process, including opening the box and each and every page of the > Microsoft EULA. I zoomed in on the relevant section about returning > the license to the vendor. I also zoomed in on the radio button which > says "Do Not Accept" and showed myself rejecting the license. This > will add some time to your initial computer use, but is proof that you > read and rejected the license. > > Before you make the call, have everything you need in front of you. > You should have all the details of your order, including the order > number, date purchased, and even your credit card number. You should > have the computer's serial number and, in the case of Dell, its > Express Service Code. Later in the process, you may need your Windows > Certificate of Authenticity (COA) key. It's on the holographic label > usually found on the bottom of the laptop. You might find it easier to > just have the laptop itself handy. > > You'll also want to have the text of the EULA ready. You probably > don't need the entire thing, but the specific wording about returning > Windows to the vendor may become key. > > Lastly, you're going to want to have a pen and paper ready. If your > phone is wireless, you'll want to be sure it's fully charged, and keep > a beverage handy -- you could be on the phone a while. > > Preparing for the call > > By this time in the process, you're probably itching to get on the > phone, get on your soapbox, and get your refund. Resist the urge. > Remember that you're looking to exercise a legal right. You're not > going to change anyone's mind about Free Software, and any extra time > you spend in the process only takes you further from your goal. > > Be polite. A customer service representative is used to handling > dozens of issues a day, but your issue is going to be outside the > norm. The person on the other end of the phone is your representation > on the company's side, so you want to keep him or her as happy as > possible. Don't get angry, don't yell, don't be rude. If things become > tense, disarm the situation with kindness, and, if it's appropriate, a > joke. > > You will be put on hold. Dell is fairly good about not leaving folks > on hold (especially business customers), but I was put on hold a > number of times. There's nothing you can do about it, so just be > polite and accept it. What you're asking for is so unusual that > they'll probably need to call supervisors. Let them. > > Expect excuses. They're going to look for ways not to give you the > refund. After all, they've never heard of this, so it must be > impossible. My first customer service rep said that he couldn't refund > my license because I wasn't charged for it. If you hear something like > this, don't be discouraged, and don't take it as the final word. I'll > tell you how to counter these sorts of arguments in a moment. > > Don't argue, escalate. If you find you're not getting anywhere with > your customer service representative, or you're going over the same > point several times, it's time to escalate. Remember our previous > guideline of not being rude. You can ask to be transferred without > making it into a confrontation. Be sympathetic: "I see that you're > trying your best, but that you're not able to do anything else for me. > Would it be possible for you to transfer me to someone else?" > > Be persistent. You'll probably have to speak with several people, > repeat yourself, and hear lots of excuses about how you're not > entitled to what you're asking for. You're in the right, and as long > as you're in the pipeline, you're making progress. When you're not > making any more progress, escalate. > > Don't settle. At several points in my communications with customer > service, I was offered coupons, even in excess of what I was asking > for, but coupons aren't money. Politely explain that you're looking > for a refund in cash (or credit back to your credit card). > > Use the precedents. If you're in the UK, you can mention reporter Dave > Mitchell as someone whose already received a Windows refund. If you're > in the US, you can use me. If they've given refunds to the two of us, > why not you? > > During the call, you may find that the customer service representative > will come back to you with several excuses about why you're not > entitled to your refund. I've compiled a list of them, some which I > heard and others which I didn't, and good responses to them. > > "You can't return the operating system because the computer can't work > without it." > > That's the easiest argument to counter. Explain that you run GNU/Linux > (or FreeBSD, or whatever operating system you've replaced Windows > with). > > "You didn't pay anything for Windows." > > Since the price of Windows was included in the price of the computer, > they may try to argue that you didn't pay anything for it. This one is > easy to debunk. Windows costs money -- everyone knows that. Once you > establish that Windows does indeed cost money (and you can't get it > for free) then the only remaining issue is how much you paid. Since > Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way > to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, > I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that > I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50. I > don't know if this is really how much Windows costs, but it's a > non-trivial amount and I can well imagine that one of the world's > largest computer makers can get a good deal on Windows licenses from > Microsoft. > > "You bought the bundle." > > They may tell your purchase was a bundle, that Windows came on the > computer as a packaged set and you can't return one without the other. > What you have on your side to counter this is the license itself, > which says that you may choose to not accept the license and return it > to the vendor. No matter what they say regarding a bundle, the legal > wording of the license is clear. I heard the B word several times, and > each time I explained the terms of the license to them, with the > license wording at hand in case I needed to quote it verbatim. If the > customer representative tries to cut the conversation short saying > it's a bundle, stay polite, but explain that the license is quite > clear and that you're just going by the legal wording and exercising > your right to return the operating system. > > "How about a coupon?" > > I was offered coupons several times. I'm guessing that coupons are > easy to give to customers as a way to keep them happy. While you're > rejecting the coupons, realize that this is a small victory. All you > have to do at that point is ask for cash. > > "You need to return the CD." > > As a condition to getting my Windows refund, I was required to give > the COA key to the customer representative and return the Windows CD > itself. Dell was kind enough to pay for shipping of the CD, so all I > had to pay for was the envelope. Your vendor may not be as generous > regarding the shipping, but by this time, you've won. > > You win - or not > > If you're not working with Dell, you may not have the same success. In > this case, you might need to take another tack. Small claims court may > be an option. You file paperwork with the court, pay a small fee, and > show up in court with all your documentation. You'll need to make your > case quickly and succinctly. You may also want to contact the Better > Business Bureau for help. Many reputable businesses take the BBB > seriously and may be more willing to work with you after it has > contacted them. In any case, you'll be spending time and money to > resolve the issue, but so will the vendor, so they're likely to look > for an amiable solution as quickly as possible. > > To summarize: > * You're only eligible for a refund on new computers > * Document everything > * Be prepared > * Be polite > * Be persistent > * Be gracious > > If you follow these guidelines, you're likely to come out with a > working computer without the Windows tax. > > I would be remiss if I did not offer a special thank you to Dell. > Despite my initial difficulties, Dell eventually came through. After > hearing stories on the Net about folks having to bring their vendor to > small claims court, I'm happy I picked a company with reasonable > policies and people. I especially want to thank Seema, the floor > manager who worked with me on my case and offered me the refund. > > Links > _________________________________________________________________ > > 1. "Dave Mitchell" - > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm > 2. "Small claims court may be an option" - > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 > _________________________________________________________________ > > ??? Copyright 2007 - LiNUX.COM, All Rights Reserved > _________________________________________________________________ > > printed from Linux.com, How to get a Windows tax refund on 2007-01-06 > 09:58:49 > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > Hello! Well done Jay. However that does not cover one unique issue. Dell does indeed sell a no OS machine. You just need to insist on asking for it. Its a specie of Dell Dimension that's currently available. There was an entry for it in Linux Journal sometime last year. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." Ah, Serge Wroclawski is the refund getter here. I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, only Microsoft OSes are advertised. oo--JS. From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Sat Jan 6 16:12:14 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:12:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft > OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same > computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, > only Microsoft OSes are advertised. False. If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In fact, its right on the website: http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd "Open source desktops" As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 19:17:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Faye Barth) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:17:42 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] nylug-talk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: the Windows tax ... I am thinking about getting a laptop later this year, and don't want any part of Windows on it ... bad enough one of my two home desktops uses it (Gimp does NOT compare to PaintShopPro with EyeCandy4000 plugin, and I don't care for Open Office 2.0). I am starting to wonder if going the DIY route is worthwhile. F. Barth From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 22:21:58 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 22:21:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft >> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same >> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, >> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. > False. You may go to http://www.dell.com and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of OS: it is Microsoft only. > > If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than > Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In > fact, its right on the website: > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd > > "Open source desktops" > > As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied > to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. > Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, > particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less > desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav > > Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are > (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). > > I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. Not to give refunds is a gross violation of the decision of the court in the large antitrust suit. Serge got a refund, but most folks who try do not. It is a further violation of the court order to give the impression that only Microsoft OSes run on Dell home machines. Dell and Microsoft are engaged in a combination in restraint of trade. The issue has been abjudicated. Dell and Microsoft lost. But because we who run free OSes do not go to the court, Microsoft and Dell continue their gross attacks on us, and on every buyer of a home machine. Dell and Microsoft wish to end even the bare possibility of running a free OS. To repeat: Dell does not offer for sale any home computer without a Microsoft OS already installed, and Dell and Microsoft ignore the plain and simple terms of the Refund Clause of the Microsoft EULA. Note that Microsoft wrote the EULA. http://www.windowsrefund.info http://www.thetc.org oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 23:17:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:17:59 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > >> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft > >> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same > >> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, > >> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. > > False. > > You may go to > > http://www.dell.com > > and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of > OS: it is Microsoft only. > > > > > If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than > > Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In > > fact, its right on the website: > > > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd > > > > "Open source desktops" > > > > As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied > > to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. > > Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, > > particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less > > desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav > > > > Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are > > (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). > > > > I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. > > Not to give refunds is a gross violation of the decision of the > court in the large antitrust suit. Serge got a refund, but most > folks who try do not. It is a further violation of the court > order to give the impression that only Microsoft OSes run on Dell > home machines. Dell and Microsoft are engaged in a combination > in restraint of trade. The issue has been abjudicated. Dell and > Microsoft lost. But because we who run free OSes do not go to > the court, Microsoft and Dell continue their gross attacks on us, > and on every buyer of a home machine. > > Dell and Microsoft wish to end even the bare possibility of > running a free OS. To repeat: Dell does not offer for sale any > home computer without a Microsoft OS already installed, and Dell > and Microsoft ignore the plain and simple terms of the Refund > Clause of the Microsoft EULA. Note that Microsoft wrote the > EULA. > > http://www.windowsrefund.info > http://www.thetc.org > > oo--JS. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > Hello! Excuse me? Your not getting it, are you? There was indeed an blurb in the new products section of an issue of Linux Journal last month that describes a Dell machine that was built especially for Linux (and probably the BSD crowd as well!). Don't go basing it on that poorly designed website of theirs that's only useful to someone who's a complete naif about hardware. (I should know I went through that hassle for a Dell Dimension who's from the generation before this one.) It also happens that those gonophs in Redmond do honor the terms behind the refund, and it was discussed to its probable demise about eight years ago at an OEM meeting I attended. Now if you want me to prove it, please contact me off list the Monday of the first meeting for this year, and I'll bring in the issue. Ordering it of course is the other problem..... But that's for another one of these. And other then that off list one, please let's drop the subject. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 23:31:27 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:31:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> References: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> >>>> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft >>>> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same >>>> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, >>>> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. >>> False. >> >> You may go to >> >> http://www.dell.com >> >> and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of >> OS: it is Microsoft only. >> >>> >>> If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than >>> Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In >>> fact, its right on the website: >>> >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd >>> >>> "Open source desktops" >>> >>> As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied >>> to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. >>> Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, >>> particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less >>> desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav >>> >>> Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are >>> (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). >>> >>> I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. >> >> Not to give refunds is a gross violation of the decision of the >> court in the large antitrust suit. Serge got a refund, but most >> folks who try do not. It is a further violation of the court >> order to give the impression that only Microsoft OSes run on Dell >> home machines. Dell and Microsoft are engaged in a combination >> in restraint of trade. The issue has been abjudicated. Dell and >> Microsoft lost. But because we who run free OSes do not go to >> the court, Microsoft and Dell continue their gross attacks on us, >> and on every buyer of a home machine. >> >> Dell and Microsoft wish to end even the bare possibility of >> running a free OS. To repeat: Dell does not offer for sale any >> home computer without a Microsoft OS already installed, and Dell >> and Microsoft ignore the plain and simple terms of the Refund >> Clause of the Microsoft EULA. Note that Microsoft wrote the >> EULA. >> >> http://www.windowsrefund.info >> http://www.thetc.org >> >> oo--JS. >> _____________________________________________________________________________ >> Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org >> The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org >> The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk >> To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk >> > > Hello! > Excuse me? Your not getting it, are you? There was indeed an blurb in > the new products section of an issue of Linux Journal last month that > describes a Dell machine that was built especially for Linux (and > probably the BSD crowd as well!). Please go to http://www.dell.com and look for a home machine with a free OS installed. There are none. > > Don't go basing it on that poorly designed website of theirs that's > only useful to someone who's a complete naif about hardware. (I should > know I went through that hassle for a Dell Dimension who's from the > generation before this one.) Poor website design is not the issue. Dell and Microsoft have agreed to refuse to sell any home computer that does not have a Microsoft OS installed. > > It also happens that those gonophs in Redmond do honor the terms > behind the refund, and it was discussed to its probable demise about > eight years ago at an OEM meeting I attended. No, Microsoft and Dell do not honor the plain and simple terms of the Refund Clause of the Microsoft EULA. > > > Now if you want me to prove it, please contact me off list the Monday > of the first meeting for this year, and I'll bring in the issue. > Ordering it of course is the other problem..... But that's for another > one of these. No. I will pay you full price for a Dell laptop that you buy and deliver to me with no Microsoft OS on it, and for which you have gotten a refund. > > And other then that off list one, please let's drop the subject. > -- > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com No. If we do not get the Refund Clause of the Microsoft EULA enforced, then shortly no Dell computer will boot any free OS. oo--JS. > "This signature was once found posting rude > messages in English in the Moscow subway." > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 23:42:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:42:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: < ... /> > Please go to > > http://www.dell.com > > and look for a home machine with a free OS installed. > > There are none. And there are not any for sale without an OS. The only home computers Dell sells come with a Microsoft OS installed, and you may read Serge's article, and many other articles, to learn in what manner Dell and Microsoft abide by the terms of the Refund Clause of the EULA. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 23:42:06 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:42:06 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18d205ed0701062042r1d391fcfvb4eaa8fd21446c6b@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > > > On 1/6/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > >> > >>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >>> > >>>> I do not know whether Dell sells any home computer without a Microsoft > >>>> OS. Certainly they do not sell one at a lower price than the same > >>>> computer with a Microsoft OS already installed. On the Dell website, > >>>> only Microsoft OSes are advertised. > >>> False. > >> > >> You may go to > >> > >> http://www.dell.com > >> > >> and see that Dell offers to buyers of home machines no choice of > >> OS: it is Microsoft only. > >> > >>> > >>> If you want to rail against windows tax, rail against someone other than > >>> Dell. Dell very much sells OS-less desktops (under "small business"). In > >>> fact, its right on the website: > >>> > >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd > >>> > >>> "Open source desktops" > >>> > >>> As far as price - it varies. Often enough, the promotions that are applied > >>> to windows servers are not applied to os-less servers on website. > >>> Occasionally, you can call your phone sales rep and they might budge, > >>> particularly for a large order (say, 50 machines). Currently, os-less > >>> desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: > >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml > >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav > >>> > >>> Not every desktop is available OS-less, currently, only OptiPlex are > >>> (although, they did have dimension os-less at one point). > >>> > >>> I know, we own a large number of Optiplex boxes that are OS-less. > >> > >> Not to give refunds is a gross violation of the decision of the > >> court in the large antitrust suit. Serge got a refund, but most > >> folks who try do not. It is a further violation of the court > >> order to give the impression that only Microsoft OSes run on Dell > >> home machines. Dell and Microsoft are engaged in a combination > >> in restraint of trade. The issue has been abjudicated. Dell and > >> Microsoft lost. But because we who run free OSes do not go to > >> the court, Microsoft and Dell continue their gross attacks on us, > >> and on every buyer of a home machine. > >> > >> Dell and Microsoft wish to end even the bare possibility of > >> running a free OS. To repeat: Dell does not offer for sale any > >> home computer without a Microsoft OS already installed, and Dell > >> and Microsoft ignore the plain and simple terms of the Refund > >> Clause of the Microsoft EULA. Note that Microsoft wrote the > >> EULA. > >> > >> http://www.windowsrefund.info > >> http://www.thetc.org > >> > >> oo--JS. > >> _____________________________________________________________________________ > >> Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > >> The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > >> The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > >> > > > > Hello! > > Excuse me? Your not getting it, are you? There was indeed an blurb in > > the new products section of an issue of Linux Journal last month that > > describes a Dell machine that was built especially for Linux (and > > probably the BSD crowd as well!). > > Please go to > > http://www.dell.com > > and look for a home machine with a free OS installed. > > There are none. > > > > > Don't go basing it on that poorly designed website of theirs that's > > only useful to someone who's a complete naif about hardware. (I should > > know I went through that hassle for a Dell Dimension who's from the > > generation before this one.) > > Poor website design is not the issue. Dell and Microsoft have > agreed to refuse to sell any home computer that does not have a > Microsoft OS installed. > > > > > It also happens that those gonophs in Redmond do honor the terms > > behind the refund, and it was discussed to its probable demise about > > eight years ago at an OEM meeting I attended. > > No, Microsoft and Dell do not honor the plain and simple terms of > the Refund Clause of the Microsoft EULA. > > > > > > > Now if you want me to prove it, please contact me off list the Monday > > of the first meeting for this year, and I'll bring in the issue. > > Ordering it of course is the other problem..... But that's for another > > one of these. > > No. I will pay you full price for a Dell laptop that you buy and > deliver to me with no Microsoft OS on it, and for which you have > gotten a refund. > > > > > And other then that off list one, please let's drop the subject. > > -- > > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com > > No. If we do not get the Refund Clause of the Microsoft EULA > enforced, then shortly no Dell computer will boot any free OS. > > oo--JS. > > > > "This signature was once found posting rude > > messages in English in the Moscow subway." > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > Hello! Pardon me? I didn't say it came with a free OS installed. This machine gets specially ordered, empty. And according to the blurb, which probably isn't in the one for December, but it did come up during the second half of last year. I will bring it, it contains a special link in the blurb. I thought I made it clear, that its not listed on the site directly, Which is why I insisted that the website is at fault. Now please let's drop the issue, and move on to something else before we start exchanging unfriendly insults, and one of the Owners steps in to end it. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Sat Jan 6 23:39:45 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:39:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > < ... /> > > > Please go to > > > > http://www.dell.com > > > > and look for a home machine with a free OS installed. > > > > There are none. > > And there are not any for sale without an OS. > > The only home computers Dell sells come with a Microsoft OS > installed, and you may read Serge's article, and many other > articles, to learn in what manner Dell and Microsoft abide by the > terms of the Refund Clause of the EULA. *^*#($#$!@!@ linux zealots who will twist the facts to their liking. There's no difference between "home" computer and "small business" computer. Its the same exact computer, sold through different channels at occasionally different prices. Don't want to pay microsoft tax? buy through small business channel. Yes, you can do that as an individual. As a matter of fact, smallbiz prices are usually *cheaper* than "home" prices. -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 23:53:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:53:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <18d205ed0701062042r1d391fcfvb4eaa8fd21446c6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> <18d205ed0701062042r1d391fcfvb4eaa8fd21446c6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: < ... /> > Hello! > Pardon me? I didn't say it came with a free OS installed. This machine > gets specially ordered, empty. And according to the blurb, which > probably isn't in the one for December, but it did come up during the > second half of last year. I will bring it, it contains a special link > in the blurb. > > I thought I made it clear, that its not listed on the site directly, > Which is why I insisted that the website is at fault. So you agree that Dell, on the Dell website, does not offer any home computer without a Microsoft OS installed? I am glad we agree. > > Now please let's drop the issue, and move on to something else before > we start exchanging unfriendly insults, and one of the Owners steps in > to end it. > -- > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com No, I will not insult you. But I would like your help in getting a Dell laptop without any OS. This laptop is for my personal use, and I will not run any Microsoft OS on it. If I have understood you correctly, I should be able to get such without difficulty, and I should be able to get such a laptop without paying for an OS I will never run. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 6 23:57:04 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 23:57:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> < ... /> >> >>> Please go to >>> >>> http://www.dell.com >>> >>> and look for a home machine with a free OS installed. >>> >>> There are none. >> >> And there are not any for sale without an OS. >> >> The only home computers Dell sells come with a Microsoft OS >> installed, and you may read Serge's article, and many other >> articles, to learn in what manner Dell and Microsoft abide by the >> terms of the Refund Clause of the EULA. > *^*#($#$!@!@ linux zealots who will twist the facts to their liking. > > There's no difference between "home" computer and "small business" > computer. Its the same exact computer, sold through different channels at > occasionally different prices. Don't want to pay microsoft tax? buy > through small business channel. Yes, you can do that as an individual. As > a matter of fact, smallbiz prices are usually *cheaper* than "home" > prices. > > -alex Alex, let us then attempt to buy one, or evn a few such fine machines from Dell. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 7 00:15:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:15:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund References: <18d205ed0701062017t416119c6p23ea6e29ae13903b@mail.gmail.com> <18d205ed0701062042r1d391fcfvb4eaa8fd21446c6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <877ivzzab8.fsf@nyarlothotep.Belkin> Ok, a recent post in this thread (that this is a reply to) had: 144 lines of quoting 13 lines of message 4 lines of signature 4 lines of auto-added list spoo Taking all of the quoting as noise, and all of the sigs we get as signal to noise ratio of: S/N = 13/152 = 0.0855 = -10.56 dB By my count, 7 of quoting would have identified the point being responded to sufficiently. So we could count those 7 lines of quoting as signal instead of noise, unfortunately that doesn't help much: S/N = 20/145 = -8.60 dB To be more charitable, we could consider quoting of the whole 29 lines of the message it was in reply to as signal (quoted auto-list added spoo and sigs still taken as noise). That makes the signal to noise ratio: S/N = 42/123 = 0.341 = -4.66 dB Including the body of the whole previous _two_ posts as signal we get: S/N = 61/104 = 0.586 = -2.317 dB And if we just don't count the 4 lines of auto-added spoo except when quoted (since they're noise that the poster has no control over) we get: S/N = 61/100 = 0.61 = -2.15 dB And that strikes me as a *very* charitable definition of signal and noise. And it's still negative. Trim your freaking replies people. -- Eric From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Sun Jan 7 08:17:17 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 08:17:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > Alex, let us then attempt to buy one, or evn a few such fine machines > from Dell. I have 50 of those. (Dell Optiplex 170LN). There's no rocket science involved in buying them... -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 7 09:16:53 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 09:16:53 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DIY laptop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A100D5.3080303@saplings.us> Faye Barth wrote: > Re: the Windows tax ... I am thinking about getting a laptop... I am starting > to wonder if going the DIY route is worthwhile. F. Barth > There is a DIY method of building a laptop? I know you can get the motherboard, hd, memory and other components, but I wasn't aware that there was a place that you could get the case and associated LCD monitor(or mounting for a monitor and be able to get the guts for the monitor elsewhere). Idle curiosity here, I don't have enough confidence in my ability to put together the small components to get a laptop, but I am curious if it is possible and feasible. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 7 17:27:36 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Drew Davis) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:27:36 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1168208857.5409.38.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2007-01-06 at 15:26 -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > Hello! > Well done Jay. However that does not cover one unique issue. Dell does > indeed sell a no OS machine. You just need to insist on asking for it. > Its a specie of Dell Dimension that's currently available. There was > an entry for it in Linux Journal sometime last year. I've never had any luck in past attempts to find the no-os offerings for Dell starting from Dell's home page. The URL that gets me there though is: http://www.dell.com/nseries $52.50 off a sale price on some conventional Dell offering is probably a better deal. The window for returning an nseries machine for a refund is much smaller than the window for returning a conventional Dell machine (but, wow, you need to wade through some fine print to discover that factoid). Except for some workstation models, they aren't preloading Linux nor are they representing that Linux will work on them without your having to perhaps sweat over finding the right drivers. Total value added = $0.00 for the nseries, in my opinion. Drew From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 7 17:41:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Faye Barth) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 22:41:17 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] DIY laptop? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: Gary Mort wrote >There is a DIY method of building a laptop? I know you can get the >motherboard, hd, memory and other components, but I wasn't aware that >there was a place that you could get the case and associated LCD >monitor(or mounting for a monitor and be able to get the guts for the >monitor elsewhere). > >Idle curiosity here, I don't have enough confidence in my ability to put >together the small components to get a laptop, but I am curious if it is >possible and feasible. .................................................................................. Well I don't know either; I'm basically at square 1 of the process myself. But I'm ticked off enough to start looking into it. F. Barth From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 00:12:25 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:12:25 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Preinstalled DRM In-Reply-To: <200701031702.24452.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> References: <60131f920612300841q5d1ce586m2174bcd9d7f212fe@mail.gmail.com> <459BDD18.2060803@wrkhors.com> <200701031702.24452.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070108051225.GA13203@www2.mrbrklyn.com> http://www.top-rated-reviews.com/dvd_to_mp4.htm?gclid=COKXs5yG0IkCFSJYPgodAkquTA The death of DRM from 1 million paper cuts.... -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 03:52:47 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 03:52:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> Alex, let us then attempt to buy one, or evn a few such fine machines >> from Dell. > I have 50 of those. (Dell Optiplex 170LN). There's no rocket science > involved in buying them... > > -alex Could I order a laptop by just calling Dell and saying "Please don't put any OS on the laptop and also do not charge me for a Microsoft OS."? oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 04:01:16 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 04:01:16 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070108090116.GB1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 03:52:47AM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > >> Alex, let us then attempt to buy one, or evn a few such fine machines > >> from Dell. > > I have 50 of those. (Dell Optiplex 170LN). There's no rocket science > > involved in buying them... > > > > -alex > > Could I order a laptop by just calling Dell and saying "Please > don't put any OS on the laptop and also do not charge me for a > Microsoft OS."? > > oo--JS. Hi Jay, that's what I was thinking! It would save both Dell and you the trouble. Cost: tech support call cost tech support worker cost your phone call cost and time and irateness check refund issuing cost OS imaging cost OEM OS cost =============== Approx. Cost of full OS? Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFoghbv8UcC1qRZVMRAtn9AJ0W5d58Ur0MxgwSZx7YrpWo9XUASwCgkF2Z zpjaC6RF3zzam+N7Lo8W3eg= =VVvL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 04:05:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 04:05:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <1168208857.5409.38.camel@localhost> References: <18d205ed0701060802w6dc869ebgf68f29803a4358d7@mail.gmail.com> <1168208857.5409.38.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, R. Drew Davis wrote: > On Sat, 2007-01-06 at 15:26 -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Gregg Levine wrote: > >> Hello! >> Well done Jay. However that does not cover one unique issue. Dell does >> indeed sell a no OS machine. You just need to insist on asking for it. >> Its a specie of Dell Dimension that's currently available. There was >> an entry for it in Linux Journal sometime last year. > > I've never had any luck in past attempts to find the no-os offerings for > Dell starting from Dell's home page. The URL that gets me there though > is: http://www.dell.com/nseries > > $52.50 off a sale price on some conventional Dell offering is probably a > better deal. The window for returning an nseries machine for a refund > is much smaller than the window for returning a conventional Dell > machine (but, wow, you need to wade through some fine print to discover > that factoid). Except for some workstation models, they aren't > preloading Linux nor are they representing that Linux will work on them > without your having to perhaps sweat over finding the right drivers. > Total value added = $0.00 for the nseries, in my opinion. > > Drew Yes, Dell does not sell home machines without a Microsoft OS already loaded. Anyone on this list may call Dell and ask for such a machine. After the answer, the facts of the case will be known. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 04:22:45 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 04:22:45 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DIY laptop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A20D65.90404@hirschman.net> Faye Barth wrote: > Re: Gary Mort wrote >>but I wasn't aware that >> there was a place that you could get the case and associated LCD >> monitor > Well I don't know either; I'm basically at square 1 of the process myself. > But I'm ticked off enough to start looking into it. F. Barth > This place might be helpful: http://www.abs.com/diy/notebookdiy.asp Note: same parent company as Newegg, I believe. There are others selling "whitebox" notebooks for those interested in DIY. Do a google search on "bare bones notebook". DIY notebooks aren't really that DIY. You have to buy the chassis as a whole - LCD, case, keyboard, motherboard, etc. Then you slap whatever into it. It might be easier than a full PC, honestly. Not sure that it makes a whole lot of sense. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 04:27:41 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 04:27:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <20070108090116.GB1757@localhost> References: <20070108090116.GB1757@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Kevin Mark wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 03:52:47AM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >> >> On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> >>>> Alex, let us then attempt to buy one, or evn a few such fine machines >>>> from Dell. >>> I have 50 of those. (Dell Optiplex 170LN). There's no rocket science >>> involved in buying them... >>> >>> -alex >> >> Could I order a laptop by just calling Dell and saying "Please >> don't put any OS on the laptop and also do not charge me for a >> Microsoft OS."? >> >> oo--JS. > Hi Jay, > that's what I was thinking! It would save both Dell and you the trouble. > Cost: > tech support call cost > tech support worker cost > your phone call cost and time and irateness > check refund issuing cost > OS imaging cost > OEM OS cost > =============== > Approx. Cost of full OS? > Cheers, > Kev Yes. The antitrust action, now decided against Microsoft, was aimed at stopping Microsoft and Dell from agreeing to keep other OSes off Dell computers. This has now been forgotten, by both the court, and many people who run free software. But Microsoft has not forgotten, and that is why Microsoft will pay thousands of dollars per incident to stop buyers of home machines from getting a refund. The fifty dollars given back in the few refund cases we have won is not the money at issue: rather the billions of dollars paid for copies of Microsoft Jumbo Office Suites is the issue. If people who buy home computers learn that they can run a better operating system, then they will run the better operating system, and sales of Microsoft Jumbo Office Suite will fall. oo--JS. > - -- > | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | > | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | > | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | > | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | > | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFFoghbv8UcC1qRZVMRAtn9AJ0W5d58Ur0MxgwSZx7YrpWo9XUASwCgkF2Z > zpjaC6RF3zzam+N7Lo8W3eg= > =VVvL > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 04:34:31 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 04:34:31 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DIY laptop? In-Reply-To: <45A20D65.90404@hirschman.net> References: <45A20D65.90404@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <20070108093430.GD1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:22:45AM -0500, jh wrote: > Faye Barth wrote: > > Re: Gary Mort wrote > >>but I wasn't aware that > >> there was a place that you could get the case and associated LCD > >> monitor > > Well I don't know either; I'm basically at square 1 of the process myself. > > But I'm ticked off enough to start looking into it. F. Barth > > > > This place might be helpful: > > http://www.abs.com/diy/notebookdiy.asp > > Note: same parent company as Newegg, I believe. There are others selling > "whitebox" notebooks for those interested in DIY. Do a google search on > "bare bones notebook". > > DIY notebooks aren't really that DIY. You have to buy the chassis as a > whole - LCD, case, keyboard, motherboard, etc. Then you slap whatever > into it. It might be easier than a full PC, honestly. Not sure that it > makes a whole lot of sense. > > jh Hi *, I can confim this with the trade publication that I get. A company called ASI (asipartner.com) lists a 'customize notebook' like the EL80 that they call a BTO (build-to-order) notebook solution. I have so far only seen Intel mentioned with these ads though. cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFohAmv8UcC1qRZVMRAvbvAJ9sPKAFyU0Qq0jmUPjaWGDGiCopwACfXH/D myqfeRII0bGSGP3+27/rFC8= =z4Nc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 08:55:20 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael Bacarella) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 07:55:20 -0600 Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: References: <20070108090116.GB1757@localhost> Message-ID: <20070108135520.GA32395@red.netgraft.com> On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:27:41AM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: ... > The fifty dollars given back in the few refund cases we have won > is not the money at issue: rather the billions of dollars paid > for copies of Microsoft Jumbo Office Suites is the issue. If > people who buy home computers learn that they can run a better > operating system, then they will run the better operating system, > and sales of Microsoft Jumbo Office Suite will fall. The cases where refunds are issued for Windows in accordance with Microsoft's stated policy are exceptional. It should be known that they were required by regulators to add this clause and both Microsoft and its partners, as a practice, disregard the clause or misrepresent its meaning whenever it suits their interests. While the vendors have mixed feelings on selling desktops with no OS, they put on a much more united front when it comes to laptops. According to practice, the laptop and the Windows license are one and the same. There is simply no OS-less laptop option. Pure-Linux laptop vendors tell me that even at the wholesale level it is impossible for them to buy their stock without paying a per-unit cost for a Windows license. Paraphrasing one of them "Unfortunately, you're paying for it whether you want it or not. I can offer to ship it either without Windows or install it to a separate partition." Currently there are no administrative processes in place that will allow a consumer to bring these vendors into compliance. They must pursue legal action and this is frustrated by further legal manuevering from the vendor's terms of sale which require disputes to be resolved through arbitration. -- Michael Bacarella 1-646-641-8662 (cell) 545 Eighth Avenue * Suite 401 New York, NY 10018 http://michael.bacarella.com/ http://netgraft.com/ From mike surelynot jurney.org Mon Jan 8 10:20:31 2007 From: mike surelynot jurney.org (mike surelynot jurney.org) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 10:20:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell Message-ID: The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - Anyone have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I imagine that a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty clearly. -- Michael D. Jurney mike at jurney.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 10:24:35 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 10:24:35 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I work at 35th and 9th and our building manager said there is a gas pipe leak at 34th and 8th Ave and that ConEd is currently working on it. According to my co-workers, Penn Station is either closed, or delayed due to the gas leak. That is at least what I have heard so far. On 1/8/07, mike at jurney.org wrote: > > > The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - Anyone > have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I imagine that > a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty > clearly. > > -- > Michael D. Jurney > mike at jurney.org > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 11:00:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 11:00:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701081100.56051.sunny@opencurve.org> On Monday 08 January 2007 10:20, mike at jurney.org wrote: > The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - Anyone > have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I imagine that > a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty > clearly. 1010 wins just reported that Bloomy said it does not appear to be a gas leak. -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 11:16:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:16:59 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DIY laptop? In-Reply-To: <45A100D5.3080303@saplings.us> References: <45A100D5.3080303@saplings.us> Message-ID: <45A26E7B.8030102@darose.net> Gary Mort wrote: > Faye Barth wrote: >> Re: the Windows tax ... I am thinking about getting a laptop... I am starting >> to wonder if going the DIY route is worthwhile. F. Barth >> > > There is a DIY method of building a laptop? I know you can get the > motherboard, hd, memory and other components, but I wasn't aware that > there was a place that you could get the case and associated LCD > monitor(or mounting for a monitor and be able to get the guts for the > monitor elsewhere). > > Idle curiosity here, I don't have enough confidence in my ability to put > together the small components to get a laptop, but I am curious if it is > possible and feasible. It is. Generally the way it works is that you buy a "barebones" laptop which several vendors (e.g., Asus) sell. It's essentially a laptop with no CPU, disk, memory, or wireless card, but which comes with case, keyboard, screen, motherboard (usually containing wired network, sound, etc.) You then buy the remaining key h/w ingredients to suit your needs (and, if you're running Windoze, s/w as well) and put it all together yourself. It sounded like a cool route to me too and, having built a desktop in the past, I was tempted to try it. However, I quickly discovered the one downside - it would have wound up being a good bit more expensive to build one than to buy an equivalent laptop retail from one of the major vendors. (Dell, in my case.) That said, I'd imagine it's a fun route to go for a true geek. Google "barebones laptop" or "barebones notebook" (and/or see http://usa.asus.com/products2.aspx?l1=23) for more info and relevant magazine reviews. HTH, DR From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 11:27:07 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:27:07 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DIY laptop? In-Reply-To: <45A26E7B.8030102@darose.net> References: <45A100D5.3080303@saplings.us> <45A26E7B.8030102@darose.net> Message-ID: <45A270DB.8000106@hirschman.net> David Rosenstrauch wrote: > It sounded like a cool route to me too and, having built a desktop in > the past, I was tempted to try it. However, I quickly discovered the > one downside - it would have wound up being a good bit more expensive to > build one than to buy an equivalent laptop retail from one of the major > vendors. (Dell, in my case.) > It also looks like it hard to find truly small units, and that battery life on the "whitebox" units are not entirely competitive, either. It is hard to find a vendor that has everything that you need, too. Asus or another one of these vendors should go direct to the consumer; then it might be an alternative. The folks reselling them are clearly not interested in getting a lot of business, not with their prices. I'd love to see someone do for portable computing what Soekris did for appliances - come up with something that's cheap, open-source friendly, and really caters to the what OSS users want. Imagine an ARM-based portable (or VIA x86), under three pounds, that shipped bare-bones that had PCMCIA, CF slot for storage expansion (choose either microdrive or cheap CF card flash) and a mini-PCI slot (choose whatever wireless or combo that you want). The emphasis being mobile OSS productivity. I'd get one in a heartbeat. Not sure that there'd be a market, tho, or a big enough one. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 12:54:40 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (VaibhaV Sharma) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:54:40 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2007, at 10:20 AM, mike at jurney.org wrote: > > The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - > Anyone > have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I > imagine that > a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty > clearly. Its stinking here at Exchange Place, Jersey City too. -- VaibhaV Sharma http://vsharma.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 12:58:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Rajesh Menon) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:58:10 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/07, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > > On Jan 8, 2007, at 10:20 AM, mike at jurney.org wrote: > > > > > The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - > > Anyone > > have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I > > imagine that > > a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty > > clearly. > > Its stinking here at Exchange Place, Jersey City too. > Uh oh, that's fodder for the "Jersey stinks/jersey water tastes funny" police. heh. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 12:58:32 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:58:32 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: at 35th and 9th, the smell appears to have dissipated. On 1/8/07, VaibhaV Sharma wrote: > > > On Jan 8, 2007, at 10:20 AM, mike at jurney.org wrote: > > > > > The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - > > Anyone > > have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I > > imagine that > > a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty > > clearly. > > Its stinking here at Exchange Place, Jersey City too. > > -- > VaibhaV Sharma > http://vsharma.net > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 13:30:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Richard Ibbotson) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:30:59 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701081831.01759.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Hi > > Its stinking here at Exchange Place, Jersey City too. > > Uh oh, that's fodder for the "Jersey stinks/jersey water tastes > funny" police. heh. We just got this on the BBC 6 o'clock news. Something about everywhere from New Jersey, lower Manhattan to mid-town. Can't smell it over here just yet :) -- Richard www.sheflug.org.uk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 13:53:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:53:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] How to get a Windows tax refund In-Reply-To: <20070108135520.GA32395@red.netgraft.com> References: <20070108090116.GB1757@localhost> <20070108135520.GA32395@red.netgraft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Michael Bacarella wrote: > On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:27:41AM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > ... >> The fifty dollars given back in the few refund cases we have won >> is not the money at issue: rather the billions of dollars paid >> for copies of Microsoft Jumbo Office Suites is the issue. If >> people who buy home computers learn that they can run a better >> operating system, then they will run the better operating system, >> and sales of Microsoft Jumbo Office Suite will fall. > > The cases where refunds are issued for Windows in accordance > with Microsoft's stated policy are exceptional. It should be > known that they were required by regulators to add this clause > and both Microsoft and its partners, as a practice, disregard the > clause or misrepresent its meaning whenever it suits their > interests. > > While the vendors have mixed feelings on selling desktops with > no OS, they put on a much more united front when it comes to > laptops. According to practice, the laptop and the Windows license > are one and the same. There is simply no OS-less laptop option. > Pure-Linux laptop vendors tell me that even at the wholesale level > it is impossible for them to buy their stock without paying a per-unit > cost for a Windows license. Paraphrasing one of them "Unfortunately, > you're paying for it whether you want it or not. I can offer to > ship it either without Windows or install it to a separate partition." > > Currently there are no administrative processes in place that will > allow a consumer to bring these vendors into compliance. They must > pursue legal action and this is frustrated by further legal manuevering > from the vendor's terms of sale which require disputes to be resolved > through arbitration. > > -- > Michael Bacarella I believe the Microsoft Technical Compliance Committee and the FTC will act when we ask. http://www.thetc.org http://www.ftc.gov oo--JS. > > 1-646-641-8662 (cell) > > 545 Eighth Avenue * Suite 401 > New York, NY 10018 > > http://michael.bacarella.com/ > http://netgraft.com/ > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 14:10:24 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Micros50) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:10:24 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Gaseous smell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1168283424.8087.7.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> This is common illuminating gas that they claim is/was leaking ? mylar. On Mon, 2007-01-08 at 10:24, Paul Robbins wrote: > I work at 35th and 9th and our building manager said there is a gas pipe > leak at 34th and 8th Ave and that ConEd is currently working on it. > According to my co-workers, Penn Station is either closed, or delayed due to > the gas leak. That is at least what I have heard so far. > > On 1/8/07, mike at jurney.org wrote: > > > > > > The word going around is that this is a gas main leak in Chelsea - Anyone > > have any contact with the utility folks for confirmation? I imagine that > > a leak of this size would show up in their pressue monitoring pretty > > clearly. > > > > -- > > Michael D. Jurney > > mike at jurney.org > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk -- N2IZE Online: http://home.computer.net/~micros50/n2ize_index.html N2IZE email: micros50 at computer.net From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 15:37:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Mariotti) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:37:10 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] CLI "Tape" backup utilities??? Message-ID: <45A2AB76.1090604@fdcx.net> Gentlemen; I am in the process of setting up a small farm (4-5) of Ubuntu web server machines. This time I am dispensing with the GUI's. In the past I've been using Storix for my backup suite with reasonably good results. But, I would like something that is a little more portable and can be run from the command line to both make, view and restore the tapes. I am aware of the usual array of available "linux" facilities (amanda, arkeia, etc) but I am curious as to what others may be using for this purpose. Ease and reliability are my main concern. Oh, and did I mention Free? Honestly, I am willing to pay if the product/utility is worth it. But few of them really are. I would appreciate your ideas and input on this? Thanks, bobmct ps: And, can anyone advise as to how one can determine the block length and files on a given tape with available utilities? (on AIX I'd use tcopy followed by dd). From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 16:20:47 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Seth Rothenberg) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:20:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Phonics software Message-ID: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> Greetings, Does anyone use phonics software or other voice feedback games with Linux? I see that Amazon.com has a bunch of titles that say they are for Win/Mac/Linux. Can I believe them? (Do they work even with Debian GNU/Linux (full name for PC-ness:-) ) Here's the reason: I have a child who can not talk in school. I think an IVR game would be a great help. A description of SM is here, with links to Wikipedia: http://sm.pachai.net From viza surelynot larryman.net Mon Jan 8 16:48:04 2007 From: viza surelynot larryman.net (viza surelynot larryman.net) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:48:04 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Phonics software In-Reply-To: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> References: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> Message-ID: <45A2BC14.2030106@larryman.net> Seth Rothenberg wrote: > Greetings, > Does anyone use phonics software or other voice feedback > games with Linux? > > I see that Amazon.com has a bunch of titles that say > they are for Win/Mac/Linux. Can I believe them? > (Do they work even with Debian GNU/Linux (full name for PC-ness:-) ) > There is a speech synthesis system for Linux called festival. (echo "text to be spoken aloud" | festival --tts) There is also a supplment to festival called speechd which provides /dev/speech. (anything written to /dev/speech will be spoken aloud) I don't know of any games that use voice feedback though. -Viza From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 17:43:02 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael Werneke) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:43:02 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] CLI "Tape" backup utilities??? In-Reply-To: <45A2AB76.1090604@fdcx.net> References: <45A2AB76.1090604@fdcx.net> Message-ID: <9284825f0701081443w6e1ae55eud9f788731de79b52@mail.gmail.com> On 1/8/07, R. Mariotti wrote: > I am aware of the usual array of available "linux" facilities (amanda, > arkeia, etc) but I am curious as to what others may be using for this > purpose. Ease and reliability are my main concern. Oh, and did I > mention Free? Honestly, I am willing to pay if the product/utility is > worth it. But few of them really are. > I have several friends using 'bacula' at UCSD's ACS department. The docs are fairly straightforward from what I've read of them. Ubuntu has binary packages as well. Last month's Linux Journal had an article on 'duplicity', which does backup over scp (ubuntu binary also available). Good luck. -Mike From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 18:12:09 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 18:12:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Phonics software In-Reply-To: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> References: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> Message-ID: <45A2CFC9.70401@saplings.us> Seth Rothenberg wrote: > Greetings, > Does anyone use phonics software or other voice feedback > games with Linux? > > What sort of games? You can find various samples and such of games written in voicexml, and there are a bunch of test services that let you setup an account and test your own application(with the goal to deploy it to Skype or such at a per minute charge). So if you want simple text adventure type stuff you can always set up a test acount and run your own games. How old is the child? I know we went through a similiar situation with our oldest, everyone thought she didn't know how to talk because she wouldn't talk to strangers or at pre-school for the longest time. We didn't push and she moved on to finding other ways to be obstinate by age 5 though. From wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net Mon Jan 8 19:46:03 2007 From: wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net (wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:46:03 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Phonics software Message-ID: <010920070046.14175.45A2E5CB00006B250000375F22007374780B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: viza at larryman.net > Seth Rothenberg wrote: > > Greetings, > > Does anyone use phonics software or other voice feedback > > games with Linux? > > > > I see that Amazon.com has a bunch of titles that say > > they are for Win/Mac/Linux. Can I believe them? > > (Do they work even with Debian GNU/Linux (full name for PC-ness:-) ) > > > > There is a speech synthesis system for Linux called festival. > (echo "text to be spoken aloud" | festival --tts) > > There is also a supplment to festival called speechd which provides > /dev/speech. (anything written to /dev/speech will be spoken aloud) > > I don't know of any games that use voice feedback though. I'm pretty sure Seth is looking for voice recognition as well as synthesis, as the problem is that the child speaks normally at home and little if at all at school (the condition is known as "selective mutism" and is more common than some folks realize, though frequently misdiagnosed as something else). The situation in Linux voice recognition seems vague, IBM has ViaVoice, but the only version for Linux I ever saw only worked with one release of Red Hat, then it disappeared. Saw things that said part of the engine was being open-sourced, nothing after. The Speech Recognition HOWTO hasn't been updated since 2002. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader. Joseph Sobran From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 21:55:22 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:55:22 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Phonics software In-Reply-To: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> References: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> Message-ID: <20070109025522.GK1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:20:47PM -0500, Seth Rothenberg wrote: > > Greetings, > Does anyone use phonics software or other voice feedback > games with Linux? > > I see that Amazon.com has a bunch of titles that say > they are for Win/Mac/Linux. Can I believe them? > (Do they work even with Debian GNU/Linux (full name for PC-ness:-) ) > > > Here's the reason: > I have a child who can not talk in school. > I think an IVR game would be a great help. > > A description of SM is here, with links to > Wikipedia: http://sm.pachai.net Hi Seth, after thinking about this and then reading the wikipedia entry, here are a few thoughts: development of sign language as a means of alternate (non-vocal) communication. second life(the computer simulation) has been used for various social disorders like aspergers. I live to use festival to read various think (a macro with mutt, a macro to read the X clipboard with viewing webpages). Have them listen to the voice and mimic it/follow along with the words. the use of irc with festival( I used festival to 'speak' the output of irc so that the other people 'talk' back to you) this is a non-threatening interactive setting where a non-human talks. the use of 2 devices between a teacher and student for non-verbal communication( the student has a computer with something like a private irc channel and the teacher has laptop where they monitor this channel for the student to type a response) The student can raise a hand to get the teacher attention, raise a 'signal' card or similar. use of distance learning with tele-presence robot(a robot is placed in a school that has an electrnic hand and 2 way camera) the student is in a non-threatening enviroment and used the robot to 'raise a hand' to answer a question and speak into a mic that project the voice into the class room. If you have any more question, email. Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFowQav8UcC1qRZVMRAqk6AJ4uEY9jekjW6G474pQbKNTcMDVAWgCdHB3B Yw4lZ3PckYlX98p5HIqNXso= =fhlF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 8 21:57:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:57:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Phonics software In-Reply-To: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> References: <4077.67.18.176.172.1168291247.squirrel@67.18.176.172> Message-ID: <20070109025755.GL1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:20:47PM -0500, Seth Rothenberg wrote: > > Greetings, > Does anyone use phonics software or other voice feedback > games with Linux? > > I see that Amazon.com has a bunch of titles that say > they are for Win/Mac/Linux. Can I believe them? > (Do they work even with Debian GNU/Linux (full name for PC-ness:-) ) > > > Here's the reason: > I have a child who can not talk in school. > I think an IVR game would be a great help. > > A description of SM is here, with links to > Wikipedia: http://sm.pachai.net The only think that has developed IVR in the GNU world is asterix telephony system. Alex of pilosoft seems to know a bit about this. As well as David Sugar of the bayonne GNU project. Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFowSzv8UcC1qRZVMRAjQ5AKCXs6t9VdFXLBFKUE+NCeOOVMo+lgCffpMM bwktxgehl1JS2KvMOc9WSJI= =Aw0b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jays surelynot panix.com Mon Jan 8 22:43:25 2007 From: jays surelynot panix.com (jays surelynot panix.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:43:25 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Tuesday 9 January 2007 Lisp NYC: Traditional Eating and Drinking in Honor of John von Neumann Message-ID: <200701090343.l093hPX24340@panix3.panix.com>
From: Heow Eide-Goodman To: LispNYC Subject: [Lisp] Reminder: Lisp Meeting, January 9th 7:00 at Westside Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 11:02:38 -0500 Please join us for our next social meeting on Tuesday, January 9th from 7:00 to 9:00 at Westside Brewery. Happy New Year! Cheers, - Heow Directions: Westside Brewery 340 Amsterdam Ave From the 1,2,3,9: between 76th-77th on Amsterdam From: Ken Tilton To: LispNYC Subject: Re: [Lisp] Reminder: Lisp Meeting, January 9th 7:00 at Westside Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 12:04:57 -0500 Heow Eide-Goodman wrote: >Please join us for our next social meeting on Tuesday, January >9th from 7:00 to 9:00 at Westside Brewery. > >Happy New Year! > >Cheers, > >- Heow > >Directions: > Westside Brewery > 340 Amsterdam Ave > From the 1,2,3,9: between 76th-77th on Amsterdam This being the LispNYC meeting closest to his birthday, I hereby proclaim this the von Neumann Meeting. Anyone from Hungary or bringing someone from Hungary eats for free, and if it is a woman they also drink for free. kenny From: Heow Eide-Goodman To: LispNYC Subject: Re: [Lisp] Reminder: Lisp Meeting, January 9th 7:00 at Westside Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 12:14:20 -0500 Von Neumann was also into cellular automata: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_cellular_automata Similar to what's on the back of LispNYC's business card! - h _______________________________________________ Lisp mailing list Lisp at lispnyc.org http://www.lispnyc.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/lisp
Distributed poC TINC: Jay Sulzberger Corresponding Secretary LXNY LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization. http://www.lxny.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 07:02:49 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael B. Levy) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 04:02:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] cups: what did I do right? Message-ID: <20070109120249.49745.qmail@web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Folks, On Sunday, I decided to turn the slower of my two computers into a file and print server. I loaded the Ubuntu Dapper Drake server distro onto the machine, and within minutes, I had nfs up and running. I even installed gnump3d for kicks. All was well. Then I proceeded to install cups and attempt to set up a simple print server. My attempts to get this working on Sunday was one long tale of woe. I kept thinking back to ESR's rant about cups from a few years ago. I have used the cups web interface to set up local printers before, so I thought the first thing I should do is allow remote administration of the server so I can add the printer from my client machine. I set allow everywhere I could. (Yes, /etc/hosts has the hostnames in it) The best result this ever gave me was Firefox going from not finding server:631 to giving me a 403 Forbidden message. Finally, it occurred to me to use a text based browser over ssh to install this printer on the server. Succeeding in that, I called it a night on Sunday and left it as it was. Last night, I was going through the web admin again through ssh and saw the option "allow remote administration" so I checked that and saved my settings. I fired up the web config on my client machine, and then found that the printer was installed, and I successfully printed a test page to the printer from the client to the server. My only complaint is that now that I succeeded, I don't know what I did to achieve this. In five years of using various GNU/Linux distributions for desktop use, this is my first foray into server usage. Does anyone know what I did to get the client to access the printer? Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 09:50:19 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Allen Shaw) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:50:19 -0600 Subject: [nylug-talk] cups: what did I do right? In-Reply-To: <20070109120249.49745.qmail@web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <20070109120249.49745.qmail@web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A3ABAB.3030502@iifwp.org> Michael B. Levy wrote: >...Last night, I ... saw the option "allow remote >administration" so I checked that and saved my >settings. > >I ... then found that the printer was installed, and I >successfully printed a test page to the printer from >the client to the server. > >...Does >anyone know what I did to get the client to access the >printer? > >Mike > Hi Mike, I thought you were telling *us* what you did right with the above-quoted lines. Isn't that the answer you're looking for, turning on "allow remote administration" for the printer? - Allen -- =========================================================== Allen Shaw ashaw at peacefederation.org UPF Data Services 914.826.4622 http://www.peacefederation.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 10:03:46 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Spencer Ogden) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:03:46 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cups: what did I do right? In-Reply-To: <45A3ABAB.3030502@iifwp.org> References: <20070109120249.49745.qmail@web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <45A3ABAB.3030502@iifwp.org> Message-ID: <45A3AED2.50005@spencerogden.com> Allen Shaw wrote: > I thought you were telling *us* what you did right with the above-quoted Were steps ever taken to configure the printer (unclear)? Maybe Ubuntu auto detected the printer? Spencer From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 16:34:46 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:34:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS. Message-ID: I tried the "Home Sales" department. I was assured that they sold no laptop without a Microsoft OS already installed on the hard drive. My call was transferred to the "Business Sales" department. I was assured that that department also sold no laptop without a Microsoft OS already installed on the hard drive. The Dell/Microsoft agreement to keep free OSes from Dell customers remains in force. List folk, please forgive this ridiculous post! oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 17:00:47 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ah Pook) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:00:47 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out_a_Microsoft=09OS=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701091700.47900.ahpook@verizon.net> On Tuesday 09 January 2007 4:34 pm, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > The Dell/Microsoft agreement to keep free OSes from Dell > customers remains in force. You could always move to China. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 19:24:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael B. Levy) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] cups: what did I do right? In-Reply-To: <45A3ABAB.3030502@iifwp.org> Message-ID: <449612.22425.qm@web55505.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Well, I have the feeling that I unknowingly did something in between the allowing remote administration and when I fired up the web config on the client machine. I didn't even have to add a printer -- it was recognized before I had the chance, with the URI correctly configured. Perhaps, as someone mentioned, Ubuntu just configured it automatically. Oh, well. Sorry to bother you guys. Mike --- Allen Shaw wrote: > > > Michael B. Levy wrote: > > >...Last night, I ... saw the option "allow remote > >administration" so I checked that and saved my > >settings. > > > >I ... then found that the printer was installed, > and I > >successfully printed a test page to the printer > from > >the client to the server. > > > >...Does > >anyone know what I did to get the client to access > the > >printer? > > > >Mike > > > Hi Mike, > > I thought you were telling *us* what you did right > with the above-quoted > lines. Isn't that the answer you're looking for, > turning on "allow > remote administration" for the printer? > > - Allen > > -- > =========================================================== > Allen Shaw > ashaw at peacefederation.org > UPF Data Services > 914.826.4622 > > http://www.peacefederation.org > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: > http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at > nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at > http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 9 19:25:40 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael B. Levy) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] cups: what did I do right? In-Reply-To: <45A3AED2.50005@spencerogden.com> Message-ID: <14098.76609.qm@web55504.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I did nothing on the client side that I can recall, other than pointing Firefox to client:631. I guess I'll just chalk this up to luck and stop complaining. Mike --- Spencer Ogden wrote: > Allen Shaw wrote: > > I thought you were telling *us* what you did right > with the above-quoted > > Were steps ever taken to configure the printer > (unclear)? Maybe Ubuntu > auto detected the printer? > > Spencer > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: > http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at > nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at > http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 10 13:11:37 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:11:37 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] This Month's Meeting Message-ID: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> As some of you may already know, some of us have been busting our own asses, while kissing other asses trying to get us a new home. Google has accepted out ass kissing and will now be our official new home starting this month. They are also providing us with food and drinks. HOORAY!!! This is so good. Also, we have recruited a top notch speaker for the month. Information should be on the site sometime later today, but basically if you're wondering how good he is, after speaking at OSCon for the last couple of years, his talks are always packed, often requiring another room or having people sitting on the floor, against the wall, in the doorway and even on stage. He is so good, in fact O'reilly wants to give him his own track over the 3 day conference (or so say the rumors). What does this mean? EVERYONE WHO CAN SHOW UP, MUST SHOW UP. We have worked hard to achieve this and would like at least 100 people to be at this meeting. I'm serious, tell a friend, have him tell a friend, whatever it takes. For god's sake, there is free food and drinks. There will probably also be a ton of elusive Google schwag being given out, which you do not want to miss. So BRING YOU ASS ON DOWN AND BE PREPARED TO HAVE A HELL OF A TIME. See you there, Jack P.S. Tell every other NYLUGer you know who may be confused, not to show up at IBM. We know this will happen to at least 2 or 3 people. From etamme surelynot optonline.net Wed Jan 10 13:50:58 2007 From: etamme surelynot optonline.net (etamme surelynot optonline.net) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:50:58 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] This Month's Meeting In-Reply-To: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> References: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <69093831-1168455132-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-339287419-@bxe017-cell01.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Excellent! I will rsvp proper.. I just wanted to say thanks for securing such great facilities! Eric Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Jack Aboutboul Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:11:37 To:nylug-talk at nylug.org Subject: [nylug-talk] This Month's Meeting As some of you may already know, some of us have been busting our own asses, while kissing other asses trying to get us a new home. Google has accepted out ass kissing and will now be our official new home starting this month. They are also providing us with food and drinks. HOORAY!!! This is so good. Also, we have recruited a top notch speaker for the month. Information should be on the site sometime later today, but basically if you're wondering how good he is, after speaking at OSCon for the last couple of years, his talks are always packed, often requiring another room or having people sitting on the floor, against the wall, in the doorway and even on stage. He is so good, in fact O'reilly wants to give him his own track over the 3 day conference (or so say the rumors). What does this mean? EVERYONE WHO CAN SHOW UP, MUST SHOW UP. We have worked hard to achieve this and would like at least 100 people to be at this meeting. I'm serious, tell a friend, have him tell a friend, whatever it takes. For god's sake, there is free food and drinks. There will probably also be a ton of elusive Google schwag being given out, which you do not want to miss. So BRING YOU ASS ON DOWN AND BE PREPARED TO HAVE A HELL OF A TIME. See you there, Jack P.S. Tell every other NYLUGer you know who may be confused, not to show up at IBM. We know this will happen to at least 2 or 3 people. _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 10 14:36:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] This Month's Meeting In-Reply-To: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> References: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <20070110193642.GY1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 01:11:37PM -0500, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > As some of you may already know, some of us have been busting our own > asses, while kissing other asses trying to get us a new home. Google > has accepted out ass kissing and will now be our official new home > starting this month. They are also providing us with food and drinks. > HOORAY!!! This is so good. Hi Jack, please remember to remove your caffine IV before posting :-) Thanks to all who contributed to this effort! Now only if Google would have ask Apple to make the iPhone run Gnu/linux instead of Apple's Bsd... Cheers, Kev ps. just read planet.ubuntu.com, someone pointed out an all ubuntu desktop/server/laptop vender with no windows to be found at http://system76.com/. - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFpUBKv8UcC1qRZVMRAu5JAJ4p60Dv2YW3TQ+uEu7g30zUXBS7MQCdGGfe a8UXSscl/10qfJbcZh6CNeo= =mCDn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 10 18:32:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:32:17 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:00:47 -0500, Ah Pook wrote: > > On Tuesday 09 January 2007 4:34 pm, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > The Dell/Microsoft agreement to keep free OSes from Dell > > customers remains in force. > > You could always move to China. I believe that is a reference to this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china/ Yes, I know the source is a notorious tabloid-style site fond of the British snarky approach to journalism, but the information is apt. Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to "home consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to repeatedly. But the Microsoft employee quoted in the article describes a "delicate dance" between meeting business demand while carefully avoiding offering alternatives to non-business customers. And yes, a savvy consumer can impersonate a business, but that's the kind of customer Microsoft probably isn't too worried about. This raises several questions. Is it a goal of F/OSS advocates to have pre-installed non-MS OEM systems available for purchase from these manufacturers? If so, is that even desirable? Alternately, is it preferable to offer OS-free systems to all customers in an easy and obvious fashion? Or is a hassle-free method for getting a refund the best approach? Either way, it's clear that there is some collusion to avoid all of those possibilities to the fullest extent that they can manage. - Dave From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Wed Jan 10 20:22:39 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:22:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > This raises several questions. Is it a goal of F/OSS advocates to have > pre-installed non-MS OEM systems available for purchase from these > manufacturers? If so, is that even desirable? Alternately, is it > preferable to offer OS-free systems to all customers in an easy and > obvious fashion? Or is a hassle-free method for getting a refund the > best approach? > > Either way, it's clear that there is some collusion to avoid all of > those possibilities to the fullest extent that they can manage. All I have to say in response to above is the thread of few weeks ago, pointing out that the cost of preinstalled linux is roughly 500$ (vs the price of bare hardware). From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 10 19:22:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:22:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:00:47 -0500, Ah Pook wrote: >> >> On Tuesday 09 January 2007 4:34 pm, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> The Dell/Microsoft agreement to keep free OSes from Dell >>> customers remains in force. >> >> You could always move to China. > > I believe that is a reference to this article: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china/ > > Yes, I know the source is a notorious tabloid-style site fond of the > British snarky approach to journalism, but the information is apt. > > Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to > "home consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to > repeatedly. No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a fair deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I tried. > > But the Microsoft employee quoted in the article describes a > "delicate dance" between meeting business demand while > carefully avoiding offering alternatives to non-business > customers. And yes, a savvy consumer can impersonate a > business, but that's the kind of customer Microsoft probably > isn't too worried about. Microsoft and Dell are required under the law to not do what they are doing. They are engaged in an illegal combination in restraint of trade. The case has been abjudicated: Microsoft lost. If we ask for enforcement of the court order, we will get enforcement of the court order. > > This raises several questions. Is it a goal of F/OSS advocates > to have pre-installed non-MS OEM systems available for purchase > from these manufacturers? If so, is that even desirable? > Alternately, is it preferable to offer OS-free systems to all > customers in an easy and obvious fashion? Or is a hassle-free > method for getting a refund the best approach? It is my goal that buyers of home computers know they can buy a machine with a free OS on it. If we do not get sales, then DRM will be imposed, as it is being imposed now. And the next DRM wil not be the soft and mild DRM we know and mock. It will be hard DRM. And hard DRM can be made to work: there is no published crack of the XBox 360, though a crack was claimed about a month ago. For a suggested remedy see http://www.panix.com/~jays/tunney.letter.revised.0 > > Either way, it's clear that there is some collusion to avoid all of > those possibilities to the fullest extent that they can manage. > > - Dave This forcing of a Microsoft OS was the offense that brought antitrust action in the early Nineties of the last century. Microsoft lost the case, but we who run free software have not pressed for enforcement. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 10 21:45:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:45:17 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070111024517.GB1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 08:22:39PM -0500, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > > > This raises several questions. Is it a goal of F/OSS advocates to have > > pre-installed non-MS OEM systems available for purchase from these > > manufacturers? If so, is that even desirable? Alternately, is it > > preferable to offer OS-free systems to all customers in an easy and > > obvious fashion? Or is a hassle-free method for getting a refund the > > best approach? > > > > Either way, it's clear that there is some collusion to avoid all of > > those possibilities to the fullest extent that they can manage. > All I have to say in response to above is the thread of few weeks ago, > pointing out that the cost of preinstalled linux is roughly 500$ (vs the > price of bare hardware). Hi Alex, my parser is not always functioning correctly. Does this mean: 1. a desktop with linux installed = $500 (vs some lower cost for a desktop with windows which is less) 2. bare hardware = $500 3. to install linux on bare harware=$500 or ... Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFpaS9v8UcC1qRZVMRAh6cAJ0T2lO4TaEEhmi+Oo8I8ldjJ2b0rgCeKaK0 Flvv4WhgQEA6zUuGsRqvjIg= =H1QY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 00:42:39 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Micros50) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:42:39 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 19:22, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > > > It is my goal that buyers of home computers know they can buy a > machine with a free OS on it. If we do not get sales, then DRM > will be imposed, as it is being imposed now. And the next DRM > wil not be the soft and mild DRM we know and mock. It will be > hard DRM. And hard DRM can be made to work: there is no > published crack of the XBox 360, though a crack was claimed about > a month ago. What does the term "hard DRM" imply ?I am aware of the implications of DRM and what is can accomplish yet I am not familiar with the term "hard DRM". mylar From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 01:51:04 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Yusuke Shinyama) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 01:51:04 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> References: <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070111065104.6606.879.yusuke@mango.cs.nyu.edu> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:42:39 -0500, Micros50 wrote: > > What does the term "hard DRM" imply ?I am aware of the implications of > DRM and what is can accomplish yet I am not familiar with the term "hard > DRM". Most of current DRM implementations are done purely by software. This means if someone reverse engineers the software, s/he can break the DRM. "Hard DRM" makes this virtually impossible as OSes can cooperate with its hardware that supervises the entire machine. Actually, the concern is not only about digital contents. MS could take much more control. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computing_Base Yusuke From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 01:57:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 01:57:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: > On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 19:22, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: >> > >> >> It is my goal that buyers of home computers know they can buy a >> machine with a free OS on it. If we do not get sales, then DRM >> will be imposed, as it is being imposed now. And the next DRM >> wil not be the soft and mild DRM we know and mock. It will be >> hard DRM. And hard DRM can be made to work: there is no >> published crack of the XBox 360, though a crack was claimed about >> a month ago. > > What does the term "hard DRM" imply ?I am aware of the implications of > DRM and what is can accomplish yet I am not familiar with the term "hard > DRM". > > mylar Hard DRM is DRM which works, that is, when the box is delivered to you, someone else has root on the box, and it is difficult for you to get root on the box. The XBox360 is a home computer on which Microsoft has root, and keeps root. As of today no one has published a "crack" of the XBox360 by which I could get root on an XBox360. The XBox360 is, as far as I know, the first example of hard DRM imposed on more than one million boxes. I could perhaps buy or crack Microsoft, and thus, indirectly, get root, but such a move would gain us little in our fight to keep the right of private ownership of a computer. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 02:07:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 02:07:12 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: <20070111070712.GC1757@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 01:57:55AM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: > > > On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 19:22, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> It is my goal that buyers of home computers know they can buy a > >> machine with a free OS on it. If we do not get sales, then DRM > >> will be imposed, as it is being imposed now. And the next DRM > >> wil not be the soft and mild DRM we know and mock. It will be > >> hard DRM. And hard DRM can be made to work: there is no > >> published crack of the XBox 360, though a crack was claimed about > >> a month ago. > > > > What does the term "hard DRM" imply ?I am aware of the implications of > > DRM and what is can accomplish yet I am not familiar with the term "hard > > DRM". > > > > mylar > > Hard DRM is DRM which works, that is, when the box is delivered > to you, someone else has root on the box, and it is difficult for > you to get root on the box. The XBox360 is a home computer on > which Microsoft has root, and keeps root. As of today no one has > published a "crack" of the XBox360 by which I could get root on > an XBox360. The XBox360 is, as far as I know, the first example > of hard DRM imposed on more than one million boxes. I could > perhaps buy or crack Microsoft, and thus, indirectly, get root, > but such a move would gain us little in our fight to keep the > right of private ownership of a computer. > Hi, plus there is the illegality of selling 'mod' chips for said box that would allow you to circumvent it. There was a guy in NJ that was busted for various things related to console modification and copyright infringment. Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFpeIgv8UcC1qRZVMRAtJ0AJ9kuJwZpQKyW9vOJt/ZNHAaSlY4mgCgjs81 9Y7ENcz65b/sjrdFRVyefyU= =pYP3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Thu Jan 11 07:52:28 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 07:52:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to "home > > consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to repeatedly. > > No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a fair > deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I tried. OK, you just don't listen. I have 50 Dell desktops without any OS. The price was *cheaper* than price of components bought separately. I have >50 dell servers without any OS. I doubt you are arguing about servers, because *those* are sold OS-less by default, and you explicitly pay for windows license. I think what you meant to say is "You cannot buy a dell laptop without an OS". There's a free market, don't buy dell laptops if you want os-less one. -alex From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Thu Jan 11 07:55:18 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 07:55:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <20070111024517.GB1757@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Kevin Mark wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 08:22:39PM -0500, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > > > > > This raises several questions. Is it a goal of F/OSS advocates to have > > > pre-installed non-MS OEM systems available for purchase from these > > > manufacturers? If so, is that even desirable? Alternately, is it > > > preferable to offer OS-free systems to all customers in an easy and > > > obvious fashion? Or is a hassle-free method for getting a refund the > > > best approach? > > > > > > Either way, it's clear that there is some collusion to avoid all of > > > those possibilities to the fullest extent that they can manage. > > All I have to say in response to above is the thread of few weeks ago, > > pointing out that the cost of preinstalled linux is roughly 500$ (vs the > > price of bare hardware). > Hi Alex, > my parser is not always functioning correctly. Does this mean: > 1. a desktop with linux installed = $500 > (vs some lower cost for a desktop with windows which is less) > 2. bare hardware = $500 > 3. to install linux on bare harware=$500 > or ... #3-ish. See the thread of few weeks ago, when $poster was complaining he can't find a vendor to buy boxes with linux preinstalled without being raped. Since there's no allegation of "restraint of trade" among the linux vendors, and assuming efficient market hypothesis, it means that it really *does* cost 500$ to install linux on bare hardware. -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 08:19:00 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Joseph M. Gaffney) Date: 11 Jan 2007 08:19:00 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Message-ID: <3251348361.1298617@mail.wtfisthat.net> Easier said than done. I'm pretty bad in terms of zealotry, but dell was the only company I could buy an affordable laptop from that had the features I wanted - and I still financed it. -Joseph M. Gaffney -----Original Message----- From: alex at pilosoft.com Date: Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 6:42 am Subject: Re: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a To: NYLUG Technical Discussion CC: Jay Sulzberger On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> > Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to "home > > consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to repeatedly. > > No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a fair > deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I tried. >OK, you just don't listen. I have 50 Dell desktops without any OS. The >price was *cheaper* than price of components bought separately. > >I have >50 dell servers without any OS. I doubt you are arguing about >servers, because *those* are sold OS-less by default, and you explicitly >pay for windows license. > >I think what you meant to say is "You cannot buy a dell laptop without an >OS". There's a free market, don't buy dell laptops if you want os-less >one. > >-alex > >_____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org >The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk >To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 08:21:00 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Joseph M. Gaffney) Date: 11 Jan 2007 08:21:00 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop Message-ID: <3251348474.1308346@mail.wtfisthat.net> I missed the thread... Koobox.com, preloaded with linspire, $300. -Joseph M. Gaffney -----Original Message----- From: alex at pilosoft.com Date: Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 6:45 am Subject: Re: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop To: NYLUG Technical Discussion On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Kevin Mark wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 08:22:39PM -0500, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > > > > > This raises several questions. Is it a goal of F/OSS advocates to have > > > pre-installed non-MS OEM systems available for purchase from these > > > manufacturers? If so, is that even desirable? Alternately, is it > > > preferable to offer OS-free systems to all customers in an easy and > > > obvious fashion? Or is a hassle-free method for getting a refund the > > > best approach? > > > > > > Either way, it's clear that there is some collusion to avoid all of > > > those possibilities to the fullest extent that they can manage. > > All I have to say in response to above is the thread of few weeks ago, > > pointing out that the cost of preinstalled linux is roughly 500$ (vs the > > price of bare hardware). > Hi Alex, > my parser is not always functioning correctly. Does this mean: > 1. a desktop with linux installed = $500 > (vs some lower cost for a desktop with windows which is less) > 2. bare hardware = $500 > 3. to install linux on bare harware=$500 > or ... >#3-ish. > >See the thread of few weeks ago, when $poster was complaining he can't >find a vendor to buy boxes with linux preinstalled without being raped. > >Since there's no allegation of "restraint of trade" among the linux vendors, and assuming efficient market hypothesis, it means that it really >*does* cost 500$ to install linux on bare hardware. > > >-alex > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 09:30:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:30:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" Message-ID: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> Wednesday, January 17th, 2006 6:30pm-8:00pm Google 76 9th Ave., b/w 15th and 16th St. 4th Floor ** RSVP Closes at 2:30pm the day BEFORE meeting (sharp!) *** You must R.S.V.P. for EVERY meeting at this time. Register at http://rsvp.nylug.org/ Check in with photo ID at the lobby for badge. Latecomers can sign in, but it means having to wait. Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz - on - "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" Google, 76 9th Ave., 4th Floor. Between 15th and 16th Streets ** Please note important information about this meeting below ** ******* This meeting is being held at Google, not at IBM ******* In a world where software is sold as a black box, it makes sense that the stand-alone frameworks would evolve to allow developers to more easily assemble larger systems by building with those closed frameworks. This leads to software bloat as each application includes numerous general frameworks with large amounts of functionality un-needed by that particular application. More frameworks = more bloat. In a world where all the source code is available, is it not easier and better to start from a "reference implementation" of an application in a particular (or most closely related) domain, and modify to suit? In the Object-Oriented revolution of the late 80's / early 90's this debate was framed as "white-box reuse" vs. "black-box reuse". Now that Linux and Free Software are threatening world domination, how does that change the structure of arguments on both sides? About r0ml r0ml is an software architect and systems designer with over thirty years of experience. For two decades, r0ml worked on Wall Street, developing market data, trading, risk management, and quantitative analysis systems. More recently, as chief technical architect at AT&T Wireless, he drove the improvement of their CRM, ERP, commission, and data warehousing systems. Over the last several years, r0ml has become increasingly interested in open source software strategy at large enterprises, and is a frequent speaker on the topic. Meeting Location Please note that this meeting will be held at Google, 76 9th Ave, 4th floor, between 15th and 16th Streets, and not at IBM. This is the old Port Authority Building, and takes up the entire block. You want the entrance on 9th Ave. Map http://tighturl.com/u4 Free Refreshments! Google is also graciously providing refreshments before the meeting begins. For those of us here in the east who aren't used to a "Google spread", you're in for quite a treat. "New Google Cafeteria Crushes Competitors" Cafeterias" (New York Magazine) Books!!! Our friends at Prentice-Hall kindly provide us with review copies of various new titles. One of these could be yours, all you have to do is agree to review the book within a reasonable period of time. Swag (Give Away) During/after the meeting... unusually terrific swag may be given away. Stammtisch After the meeting ... Join us after the meeting around 8:15pm-9pm for drinks and conversation at a location to be determined. Please see our home page at http://www.nylug.org for the HTMLized version of this announcement, our archives, and a lot of other good stuff. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 09:40:31 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:40:31 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" In-Reply-To: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> References: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> Message-ID: <20070111144030.GA30966@washoe.onerussian.com> > Wednesday, January 17th, 2006 Time Travel -- I knew it exists! And I always trusted in Google as the company of innovations BTW - why the heck this event is not searchable in Google calendar's public events -- do they use it themselves out there? http://www.google.com/calendar/events?state=mode%3Dweek%2C7%26date%3D20070111&q=Does+Linux+Make+Software+Frameworks+Obsolete&btnG=Search+Public+Events&ql=New+York&qt=January+17th%2C+2006&qtd=January+17th%2C+2007 > 6:30pm-8:00pm > Google > 76 9th Ave., b/w 15th and 16th St. > 4th Floor -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 10:39:57 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Bar-Lev, Leora (GIS CCO)) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:39:57 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DST patches for Open Source Message-ID: Other than the patches for the timezone file in the Linux/Unix OS, are there any other Open Source programs/sdk's/etc. that will require patches to accommodate the changes in the DST rules? Thanks. Leora -------------------------------------------------------- If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the sender, delete it and do not read, act upon, print, disclose, copy, retain or redistribute it. Click here for important additional terms relating to this e-mail. http://www.ml.com/email_terms/ -------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 10:41:07 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Mark Halegua) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:41:07 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Reminder: DeLUGE meeting today Message-ID: <200701111041.07693.phantom21@mindspring.com> DeLUGE is meeting today. Desktop Linux Users Group for Endusers Topic: GNUCash - personal and small business accounting for Linux It's an opensource accounting package. When: Today, January 11, 2007, 6:30 PM Where: New Yorker Hotel, room 550 or 551. ?The New Yorker Hotel is located on 8th Avenue between 34th and 35th Streets. For other info, go to http://www.delugeny.org Mark From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 10:52:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:52:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" In-Reply-To: <20070111144030.GA30966@washoe.onerussian.com> References: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> <20070111144030.GA30966@washoe.onerussian.com> Message-ID: <45A65D54.1010200@vnetworx.net> Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: >> Wednesday, January 17th, 2006 > Time Travel -- I knew it exists! > And I always trusted in Google as the company of innovations > > > BTW - why the heck this event is not searchable in Google calendar's > public events -- do they use it themselves out there? > > http://www.google.com/calendar/events?state=mode%3Dweek%2C7%26date%3D20070111&q=Does+Linux+Make+Software+Frameworks+Obsolete&btnG=Search+Public+Events&ql=New+York&qt=January+17th%2C+2006&qtd=January+17th%2C+2007 The answer to both is it's not their event, it's ours. (and I have the flu or something, so don't shoot me for one small mistake) - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 11:59:19 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:59:19 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] Penguin Computing seeks Systems/Pre-Sales Engineer Message-ID: <45A66CE7.5010107@nylug.org> # JobID: #532 # Submitted On: 2007-1-11 11:54:33 # Company: Penguin Computing # Contact: Claudia Lindquist, # Email: clindquist at penguincomputing.com # Url: http://www.penguincomputing.com # Phone: Not Specified # Fax: Not Specified # Title: Systems/Pre-Sales Engineer # Salary: Not Specified # Description: Penguin Computing, Inc. is a rapidly growing provider of hardware, software and services for high-performance, high-availability and enterprise Linux computing. IDC and others project that Linux computing will be among the fastest growing segments of the technology industry for the foreseeable future. The company is privately held and backed by leading venture capitalists. Management includes well-known and highly experienced veterans of industry-leading technology companies. We have approximately 90 employees. Penguin Computing is a roll-up-your-sleeves environment where senior executives are accessible, and decisions can be made and implemented quickly. This is an ideal environment for a self-starter * Support New York metro regional sales manager selling Penguin/Scyld products and services via outbound field activities with potential and existing customers. * Troubleshoot software/hardware/OS/application compatibility and configuration issues * Support territory management including but not limited to identifying and closing new accounts, growing existing accounts, customer visits and presentations, contributing customer field data to Product Marketing and Engineering groups * Document and translate customer requirements to be integrated into our product solutions * Expect travel as part of the role ABOUT THE COMPANY Penguin Computing is the leading innovator of highly scalable Linux cluster, server and workstation platforms based on open standards hardware and software. Scyld Software, a subsidiary of Penguin Computing, provides the industry leading Linux clustering software. The company's extensive customer base includes Fortune 1000 companies, government agencies and educational institutions. Founded in 1998, Penguin Computing is headquartered in San Francisco, California. # Required Skills: * Should have 6-8 years experience with Linux hardware, distributions (RedHat, SUSE, Scyld) and operating system internals * Must have expertise in one or more scripting languages (BASH, Perl, Python preferred) * Should have experience configuring Linux for specific applications (Web serving, database, desktop, etc.) * Minimum 2-3 years Outside sales experience in consultative technical sales (systems and solutions sales preferred) to Enterprises. * Four year college degree in an appropriate technical discipline * Driven, self starter with excellent verbal and written communication skills * Knowledge of cluster distributions and HPC a plus # Location: New York City, NY # Furthermore: This is a full-time position, salary commensurate with experience and market knowledge. Penguin Computing offers a competitive benefits package including medical, vision, and dental. TO APPLY: Please send your resume with salary history and expectations to jobs at penguincomputing.com. Please include your name and desired job position in the subject line. No calls please. We regret that we cannot offer relocation or H1b visa sponsorship for this position. Equal talent will always receive equal opportunity at Penguin Computing, Inc. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 12:13:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:13:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] Atlantis Partners seeks Sr Linux Arc./Admin for Major Linux Provider Message-ID: <45A67053.10408@nylug.org> * JobID: #534 * Submitted On: 2007-1-11 12:08:20 * Company: Major Linux Provider * Contact: Ray Stout, * Url: http://www.atlantisp.com * Phone: Not Specified * Fax: Not Specified * Title: Sr Linux Arc./Admin * Salary: Not Specified * Description: The UNIX opensource leader is looking to hire a Senior UNIX Admin immediately. Their products include UNIX software for databases and servers, software development tools, and various applications. They have locations throughout the world. The current position focuses on providing service for their financial clients located within NYC and Jersey City. They are looking for a highly experienced Unix Administrator/Engineer with at least 5 years of enterprise experience with Linux Redhat, Solaris 8, 9, and 10, EMC SAN, Apache, and scripting. Some of the pluses that will set you apart from the rest are firewalls experience, clustering, Vmware, certifications, and a degree. You will be responsible for the full life cycle of the projects ranging from server builds and upgrades, infrastructure architecture, defining SAN and security options, and an endless list of responsibilities. So, experience with architecture and design are a MUST for this position. * Required Skills: At least 5 years of enterprise experience with Linux Redhat, Solaris 8, 9, and 10, EMC SAN, Apache, and scripting. Some of the pluses that will set you apart from the rest are firewalls experience, clustering, Vmware, certifications, and a degree. You will be responsible for the full life cycle of the projects ranging from server builds and upgrades, infrastructure architecture, defining SAN and security options, and an endless list of responsibilities. So, experience with architecture and design are a MUST for this position. A qualified applicant MUST have master proficiency in sales like communication and presentation skills. This is a full time position with a competitive salary, outstanding benefits package, vacation, 401K, and unlimited opportunity for growth.If you are looking to work for an industry giant have bragging rights in the technical community, and are qualified please contact Ray Stout at Atlantis Partners 212.697.5800. * Location: New York City, NY From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 12:18:53 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:18:53 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] BondMart Technologies seeks Support Engineer Message-ID: <45A6717D.5020204@nylug.org> # JobID: #535 # Submitted On: 2007-1-11 12:16:15 # Company: BondMart Technologies # Contact: Richard Campbell, # Email: richard at percentex.com # Url: http://www.bondmart.com # Phone: 212-514-8700 # Fax: Not Specified # Title: Support Engineer # Salary: Commensurate With Experience # Description: BondMart Technologies has openings for support engineers in our New York office. Duties include all aspects of our computing environment, system management, data center build-out, operational monitoring, and development of support tools. A good opportunity at this rapidly expanding financial services firm. 3+ years experience in a systems administration environment. # Required Skills: Demonstrably strong experience with Linux/FreeBSD administration, network debugging skills, NFS/DNS management, Mail. Strong experience with programming languages/scripting - Perl, shell, Tomcat/Web. Java. Experience with RDBMS, MySQL Knowledge of PC desktop support a plus. # Location: New York City, NY From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 12:23:07 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:23:07 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] Shulman Fleming & Partners seeks Lead Linux/Unix Administrator - Team Leader for client Message-ID: <45A6727B.3090101@nylug.org> # JobID: #536 # Submitted On: 2007-1-11 12:19:29 # Company: Shulman Fleming & Partners # Contact: Anthony W., # Email: aw at sap8.com # Url: http://www.sap8.com # Phone: 646 285 0500 x2 # Fax: 646 285 0400 # Title: Lead Linux/Unix Administrator - Team Leader # Salary: Not Specified # Description: The Lead Unix/Administrator position is responsible for the deployment of J2EE application servers. Additionally I am looking for the open source guru that can maintaining servers for standard Internet services such as DNS, NIS, NFS, DHCP, Samba, and FTP service. Proficiency with Sun OS, RedHat Linux, SuSE Linux, and Windows 2K/XP/2003 operating systems is desired (Mostly open source machines). Additionally the understanding of the administration of Oracle and SQL database servers and secure web servers such as Apache with mod_ssl would be excellent as well as knowledge of perl for scripting purposes. # Required Skills: 5+ years of experience with UNIX/Linux systems; large 24/7 operational support, server administration, implementation and troubleshooting hardware and O/S issues. Experience programming shell scripting (Bash/Perl), and strong knowledge of TCP/IP networking. Expert knowledge of Storage Area Networks. Knowledge of standard backup infrastructures. Linux system and program installation, compilation and configuration. System-level security procedures. # Location: New York City, NY 10001 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 13:28:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:28:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DST patches for Open Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1168540114.407.32.camel@deepfort> Hey Leora, The upcoming DST rule changes certainly pose a problem. While you are right that the timezone file will require changes there are also a number of other various applications and APIs which will need to be made aware of these changes as well. A number of open source projects have already integrated, or begun to integrate necessary changes. Your best bet is to make sure your systems are being updated regularly. Also, it might not be a bad idea to check with your OS vendor to make sure they have been working on integrating said changes as well. If you need any more questions answered, please email me off list. Thanks, Jack On Thu, 2007-01-11 at 10:39 -0500, Bar-Lev, Leora (GIS CCO) wrote: > Other than the patches for the timezone file in the Linux/Unix OS, are > there any > other Open Source programs/sdk's/etc. that will require patches to > accommodate > the changes in the DST rules? > Thanks. > Leora > -------------------------------------------------------- > > If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the sender, delete it and do not read, act upon, print, disclose, copy, retain or redistribute it. Click here for important additional terms relating to this e-mail. http://www.ml.com/email_terms/ > -------------------------------------------------------- > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 13:36:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Bar-Lev, Leora (GIS CCO)) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:36:54 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] DST patches for Open Source Message-ID: Jack - Thank you for the response. The problem here is that I don't yet have a definitive list of what Open Source is in use. I am trying to get a feel for what type of packages exist, where time is an issue (i.e., is not taken from the OS time). Also, some of these packages may have been downloaded directly, and I doubt that the users are always updating their software. I thought that maybe people in this community might have a handle on how problematic, if at all, this change is going to be. Thanks, Leora -----Original Message----- From: Jack Aboutboul [mailto:jaboutboul at speakeasy.net] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 1:29 PM To: NYLUG Technical Discussion Cc: Bar-Lev, Leora (GIS CCO) Subject: Re: [nylug-talk] DST patches for Open Source Hey Leora, The upcoming DST rule changes certainly pose a problem. While you are right that the timezone file will require changes there are also a number of other various applications and APIs which will need to be made aware of these changes as well. A number of open source projects have already integrated, or begun to integrate necessary changes. Your best bet is to make sure your systems are being updated regularly. Also, it might not be a bad idea to check with your OS vendor to make sure they have been working on integrating said changes as well. If you need any more questions answered, please email me off list. Thanks, Jack On Thu, 2007-01-11 at 10:39 -0500, Bar-Lev, Leora (GIS CCO) wrote: > Other than the patches for the timezone file in the Linux/Unix OS, are > there any > other Open Source programs/sdk's/etc. that will require patches to > accommodate > the changes in the DST rules? > Thanks. > Leora > -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the sender, delete it and do not read, act upon, print, disclose, copy, retain or redistribute it. Click here for important additional terms relating to this e-mail. http://www.ml.com/email_terms/ -------------------------------------------------------- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 13:41:20 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:41:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >>> Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to "home >>> consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to repeatedly. >> >> No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a fair >> deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I tried. > OK, you just don't listen. I have 50 Dell desktops without any OS. The > price was *cheaper* than price of components bought separately. > > I have >50 dell servers without any OS. I doubt you are arguing about > servers, because *those* are sold OS-less by default, and you explicitly > pay for windows license. > > I think what you meant to say is "You cannot buy a dell laptop without an > OS". There's a free market, don't buy dell laptops if you want os-less > one. > > -alex No. The market is not free, that is the issue. And the issue has been abjudicated: Microsoft lost. The question before us is whether to enforce the law, or loose root on the machines in our houses. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 13:48:30 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:48:30 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] Atlantis Partners seeks Sr cisco engineer for Major international Media/Financial Conglomerate Message-ID: <45A6867E.3060000@nylug.org> # JobID: #533 # Submitted On: 2007-1-11 11:59:43 # Company: Major international media/fina # Contact: Ray Stout, # Email: ray.stout at atlantisp.com # Url: http://www.atlantisp.com # Phone: 2126975800 # Fax: Not Specified # Title: Sr cisco engineer # Salary: Not Specified # Description: Major international Media/Financial Conglomerate located in Midtown Manhattan is searching for a Sr. level Cisco engineer.This is an extremely high level position in one of the most well know corporations in the world. This position will be in a Lan switch environment responsible for R/ and S/ up to the 7500 and 6500 (all enterprise equipment). This is a great opportunity for a well versed Cisco engineer to work for a brand name company. There is endless growth potential in this organization with multiple verticals into different lines of business. There is an urgent need to fill this fulltime position can offer an extremely competitive salary. Any candidates wanting to apply for this opportunity must contact Ray Stout at Atlantis Partners 212.697.5800 # Required Skills: This person must have an in-depth knowledge of BGP and exposure and administration of Checkpoint NG firewall's is also a must have skill. # Location: North NJ, NY From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 13:51:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:51:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] IMC Associates seeks Unix/Linux Administrator for Central New Jersey Research Institution Message-ID: <45A6874B.3060702@nylug.org> # JobID: #537 # Submitted On: 2007-1-11 13:50:11 # Company: IMC Associates # Contact: Brian Williams, # Email: brian at imcassociates.com # Url: http:// # Phone: 908-608-9111 # Fax: Not Specified # Title: Unix/Linux Administrator # Salary: 60-80K # Description: Central New Jersey Research Institution is seeking a strong Unix/Linux Systems Administrator. Will be in charge of a 10-20 server environment that contains Redhat, Solaris, and Mac OSX Servers. # Required Skills: Will do back-ups, system maintenance, Server upgrades, server platform migrations, email server administration, and web application hosting. Must be good at dealing with users. # Location: Central New Jersey, NY From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 13:56:29 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:56:29 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] IMC Associates seeks Senior UNIX Administrator for 6mo-1yr contract for North Jersey Pharmaceutical Company Message-ID: <45A6885D.4070606@nylug.org> * JobID: #538 * Submitted On: 2007-1-11 13:54:46 * Company: IMC Associates * Contact: Brian Williams, * Email: brian at imcassociates.com * Url: http:// * Phone: 908-608-9111 * Fax: Not Specified * Title: Senior UNIX Administrator * Salary: Not Specified * Description: (6 mo ? 1 year Consulting Assignment) North Jersey Pharmaceutical Company is seeking a Sr. UNIX Admin. Must have at least 5 years of Unix/Linux Administration Experience working extensively with Solaris, Redhat, and SuSE. * Required Skills: Will do kernel tuning, compiling, and debugging. Will be in charge of SAN and NAS storage solutions. Will do back-ups, hardware and software installations, system tuning and maintenance, as well as host a variety of database applications. * Location: Northern New Jersey, NY From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 15:56:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Thomas Joseph Re) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:56:08 +0100 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless Message-ID: I am having DNS problems with two linux systems using a D-link G624T wireless router. One system is a UBUNTU 6.10, the other FEDORA Core 4. For both systems, when I ping a named address (ie. www.linux.org), I get a pretty quick resolution (<1s) and response. When I try to link to the same address using Firefox or Konqueror, it takes forever (10's of seconds) to resolve. If I plug in the numeric IP to Firefox or Konqueror it is quick (<1s). Don't ping and web browsers use the same underlying services for name resolution? Advice? TJ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 16:06:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Mariotti) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:06:54 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > I am having DNS problems with two linux systems using a D-link G624T > wireless router. > One system is a UBUNTU 6.10, the other FEDORA Core 4. > > For both systems, when I ping a named address (ie. www.linux.org), I get a > pretty quick resolution (<1s) and response. When I try to link to the same > address using Firefox or Konqueror, it takes forever (10's of seconds) to > resolve. If I plug in the numeric IP to Firefox or Konqueror it is quick > (<1s). Don't ping and web browsers use the same underlying services for > name resolution? > > Advice? > TJ I'd like to take a stab at this one: when you ping you are access a single IP ICMP address and receiving a single VERY SHORT response message. Hence, the very quick response! Now, when you use your browser to access the same URL it is going to the same IP, but it is accessing the web SERVER and asking for a web page which in turn is most likely instructing the browser to retrieve dozens and dozens of items (images, links, counters, rss feeds, etc) not only from the server YOU referenced, but from any other server that the developers referenced in their code. Depending on the load and traffic at these "other" locations and the size of the returned files to you, the times could be quite long. This is how the web works. Granted - there is far too much "trash" being sent down on MOST web pages anyway! Just my $0.02 worth and I hope I'm somewhat right. bobmct From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 16:09:03 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (lindsay hausner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:09:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <234026.5340.qm@web32115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > I am having DNS problems with two linux systems > using a D-link G624T > wireless router. > One system is a UBUNTU 6.10, the other FEDORA Core > 4. > > For both systems, when I ping a named address (ie. > www.linux.org), I get a > pretty quick resolution (<1s) and response. When I > try to link to the same > address using Firefox or Konqueror, it takes forever > (10's of seconds) to > resolve. If I plug in the numeric IP to Firefox or > Konqueror it is quick > (<1s). Don't ping and web browsers use the same > underlying services for > name resolution? > > Advice? > TJ I had a D-Link WiFi a couple of years ago and had to use a third party 'wlan' driver. Hope this helps. lh.. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 16:18:07 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Spencer Ogden) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:18:07 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> Message-ID: <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> R. Mariotti wrote: > Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > >> When I try to link to the same >> address using Firefox or Konqueror, it takes forever (10's of seconds) to >> resolve. If I plug in the numeric IP to Firefox or Konqueror it is quick >> (<1s). >> > when you ping you are access a single IP ICMP address and receiving a > single VERY SHORT response message. Hence, the very quick response! > > Now, when you use your browser to access the same URL it is going to the > same IP, but it is accessing the web SERVER... Sounds to me like Thomas knows the difference between receiving a ping and getting a fully rendered web page. You'll note that he is comparing putting an IP address in a web browser, with putting a hostname in a web browser. Not sure what could cause this problem. Does the router (or maybe ISP) attempt to do an web caching that might be slowing things down? Easiest thing would be to swap in a different router (if you have one handy that you could borrow), or plug one of the machines directly into you Cable/DSL modem. See if you can isolate the problem. Spencer From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 16:19:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Lindsay Hausner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Top Posting...didn't mean to... Message-ID: <697902.46584.qm@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mr. Mariotti's message hadn't shown up in my yahoo box until after I had sent mine. lh.. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 16:35:49 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:35:49 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> Message-ID: <45A6ADB5.8040200@saplings.us> Spencer Ogden wrote: > R. Mariotti wrote: > > Not sure what could cause this problem. Does the router (or maybe ISP) > attempt to do an web caching that might be slowing things down? Easiest > thing would be to swap in a different router (if you have one handy that > you could borrow), or plug one of the machines directly into you > Cable/DSL modem. See if you can isolate the problem. > Another easy thing to check is what DNS servers you are using. If your using DLink's DNS server to proxy the requests, try reconfiguring your boxes to connect directly to your providers DNS servers. You can also do some testing of publicly accessible DNS servers and see which one works well for you. Alternatively, you can install the DNS caching server from TinyDNS on one of your boxes and configure both of them to use it. If I recall correctly, their caching server goes directly to the Root servers to determine the authoriative DNS server for a server name and then pulls the name from there directly - so you bypass problems with DNS caching of other servers as well as avoiding DNS hijacking attempts. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 17:16:53 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:16:53 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45A6B755.5010806@darose.net> Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to >> "home consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to >> repeatedly. > > No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a > fair deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I > tried. ? http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries DR From jays surelynot panix.com Thu Jan 11 17:19:12 2007 From: jays surelynot panix.com (jays surelynot panix.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:19:12 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Saturday Afternoon 13 January 2007 NYU Free Culture Club: Big Gathering, talks on Gutenberg, the arXiv, and BoingBoing Message-ID: <200701112219.l0BMJCr21520@panix3.panix.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:33:17 -0500 From: "Fred Benenson" To: "Free Culture @ NYU's list serv" Subject: [free-culture] January Free Culture Events: Taking Access on Open Access and Cory Doctorow Greetings Free Culture @ NYU, I hope you are enjoying your winter breaks and are looking forward to a fantastic new year. Free Culture @ NYU has some great events lined up for January and we wanted to make sure you knew about them. First is our "Taking Action on Open Access" event: http://www.freeculturenyu.org/oa/ Taking Action on Open Access Freeculture.org will be holding an organization-wide *Open Access event in NYC on Jan. 13, 2007 from 12-5pm at NYU's Courant Institute in Room 101.* All chapters are invited and encouraged to attend. The event will be free and is open to anyone interested in advocating for Open Access and Free Culture on university campuses. There will be food and refreshments and we're hoping to record the entire session to post online. As opposed to last year's Freeculture.org NYC regional summit, this event will be more specific and focused. We'll be tackling the issue of how to advocate for Open Access on university campuses. We want to take action and start targeting faculty and professors whose work is publicly (or university funded) but is published in closed journals that charge exorbitant prices to libraries and students. There is an alternative out there and we want to make sure everyone knows about it. Access to Knowledge isn't just important, it is your right as a student and member of a larger academic community. The event will be interactive, with presentations from influential professionals working in the Open Access world followed by smaller working groups. Interested in coming? Just RSVP to *oa [at] freeculturenyu.org* or via our facebook event post . Agenda Here is the agenda for the day: 12:00pm Registration / Lunch 12:30pm Introductions 1:00pm Jennifer Mclennan from SPARC 2:00pm Gavin Yamey Public 2:50pm Break 3:00pm Actual Training --- Second is Cory Doctorow: January 19th 2007 @ 5pm : Cory Doctorow *photo by Bart Nagel* On *January 19th at 5pm* Free Culture @ NYU and NYU ACMare hosting a talk by Cory Doctorow. The event will be at the Courant Institute in *Room 109 at 5pm-7pm*. Cory will be speaking on "*State of the Copyfight 2007: Looking up, not out of the woods yet.*" Cory co-edits the massively popular blog BoingBoing.net, writes sci-fi novels that are released under Creative Commons licenses, and is a dedicated copyfighter who serves on the board of numerous organizations. Read his bio hereor his Wikipedia entry . The event will be free and open to the public. -- Hope to see you there! Fred Benenson Free Culture @ NYU -- The content of this email message is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
Distributed poC TINC: Jay Sulzberger Corresponding Secretary LXNY LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization. http://www.lxny.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 17:24:48 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kiryl Hakhovich) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:24:48 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] bad routing or general bad design? Message-ID: <45A6B930.6010408@bsolution.net> Hey fellas, i have this problem for a few days, however due to my limited *deep* knowledge of TCP/IP i can't find a solution :) OFT: I was trying to get Ipsec/linux + windows clients = too much effort and impossible to get users configure their PC's as needed. So i went pptp road.... I have linux firewall box in the office that serve as default gateway for all machines inside. Now i have build another linux box that is running pptpd (one end looking to the internet, another to the lan). Windows clients can happily connect to the pptpd box and get ip address. LAN: 192.168.0.0 PPTP Users: 192.168.1.0 Linux box that acting as default gateway has a routing rule to route all 192.168.1.0 over to the linux pptpd box. When client connected, he can happily ping all servers on the LAN, however when he tries to access available server (for example http browser) on the LAN - time out happens. But once i ping the client from that server he is trying to access - all traffic magically starts flowing and user can get to it via browser. Since pings going fine (udp) why other traffic (tcp) does not fly unless i ping client from the server first? Thank you. -- Sincerely, Kiryl Hakhovich From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 17:30:30 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:30:30 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" In-Reply-To: <45A65D54.1010200@vnetworx.net> References: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> <20070111144030.GA30966@washoe.onerussian.com> <45A65D54.1010200@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <20070111223030.GB26196@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 10:52:52AM -0500, Ron Guerin wrote: > Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > >> Wednesday, January 17th, 2006 > > Time Travel -- I knew it exists! > > And I always trusted in Google as the company of innovations > > > > > > BTW - why the heck this event is not searchable in Google calendar's > > public events -- do they use it themselves out there? > > > > http://www.google.com/calendar/events?state=mode%3Dweek%2C7%26date%3D20070111&q=Does+Linux+Make+Software+Frameworks+Obsolete&btnG=Search+Public+Events&ql=New+York&qt=January+17th%2C+2006&qtd=January+17th%2C+2007 > > The answer to both is it's not their event, it's ours. (and I have the > flu or something, so don't shoot me for one small mistake) > Hi Ron, Is this the Borg Flu? You know the one that causes space-time anomolies :-) Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFprqGv8UcC1qRZVMRAvPRAJ4uHYBSNmE8WNO28hSYCcIMMGbRKQCfYcc1 CLHomyYVLRB51azu3d0ELOw= =fLTq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 17:32:16 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:32:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <45A6B755.5010806@darose.net> References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45A6B755.5010806@darose.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rosenstrauch wrote: > Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to >>> "home consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to >>> repeatedly. >> >> No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a >> fair deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I >> tried. > > ? > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries > > DR They all cost more than the same hardware with a Microsoft OS installed. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 17:42:56 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:42:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <45A6B755.5010806@darose.net> References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45A6B755.5010806@darose.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rosenstrauch wrote: > Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> Jay fails to make the distinction between equipment sold to >>> "home consumers" as opposed to businesses, which Alex refers to >>> repeatedly. >> >> No. In truth you cannot, with reasonable effort expended, get a >> fair deal from Dell on any machine without a Microsoft OS. I >> tried. > > ? > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries > > DR If you want, call Dell and try to get one at the same price as one with the Microsoft trojan substrate of the day. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 18:39:32 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:39:32 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" In-Reply-To: <20070111223030.GB26196@localhost> References: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> <20070111144030.GA30966@washoe.onerussian.com> <45A65D54.1010200@vnetworx.net> <20070111223030.GB26196@localhost> Message-ID: <18d205ed0701111539p4930eej16ca3c3b36e0dfd1@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/07, Kevin Mark wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 10:52:52AM -0500, Ron Guerin wrote: > > Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > > >> Wednesday, January 17th, 2006 > > > Time Travel -- I knew it exists! > > > And I always trusted in Google as the company of innovations > > > > > > > > > BTW - why the heck this event is not searchable in Google calendar's > > > public events -- do they use it themselves out there? > > > > > > http://www.google.com/calendar/events?state=mode%3Dweek%2C7%26date%3D20070111&q=Does+Linux+Make+Software+Frameworks+Obsolete&btnG=Search+Public+Events&ql=New+York&qt=January+17th%2C+2006&qtd=January+17th%2C+2007 > > > > The answer to both is it's not their event, it's ours. (and I have the > > flu or something, so don't shoot me for one small mistake) > > > Hi Ron, > Is this the Borg Flu? You know the one that causes space-time anomolies > :-) > Cheers, > Kev > - -- > | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | > | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | > | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | > | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | > | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFFprqGv8UcC1qRZVMRAvPRAJ4uHYBSNmE8WNO28hSYCcIMMGbRKQCfYcc1 > CLHomyYVLRB51azu3d0ELOw= > =fLTq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > Hello! Kevin there is no such thing. However there is a very large space-time void perched over both Google and IBM. It's called reality. And an even larger one over SUN. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 20:41:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:41:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: <1168471937.31327.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1168494159.18284.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: <20070112014152.GB29992@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 01:57:55AM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: > > > On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 19:22, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Dave Williams wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> It is my goal that buyers of home computers know they can buy a > >> machine with a free OS on it. If we do not get sales, then DRM > >> will be imposed, as it is being imposed now. And the next DRM > >> wil not be the soft and mild DRM we know and mock. It will be > >> hard DRM. And hard DRM can be made to work: there is no > >> published crack of the XBox 360, though a crack was claimed about > >> a month ago. > > Who's fault is it that this comes to pass? Ruben From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:04:37 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Joseph A. Maffia) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:04:37 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Off Topic - office furniture Message-ID: <45A6FAC5.2010007@joemaffia.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 My office is moving the end of this month - we will have many file cabinets, chairs, and miscellaneous office furniture for free - only condition is that it gets picked up before Jan 26th. We are located on East 51st st in Manhattan. In addition, we have an old phone system, a few printers and some really old computers. First come first served. Please contact me off list. Thanks Joe - -- www.joemaffia.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFpvrE1Zo2InkR90QRAkFgAKCfJlcgk9kOjUKmpV8dfZ6021Yp8gCfZ2bB ZOU130GAkOTiNTpisVXbUH0= =RDZy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Thu Jan 11 23:18:35 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:18:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > No. The market is not free, that is the issue. And the issue has been > abjudicated: Microsoft lost. The question before us is whether to > enforce the law, or loose root on the machines in our houses. adjucated. lose. When you get excited, you act like Ruben. :) -alex From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Thu Jan 11 23:21:11 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:21:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > They all cost more than the same hardware with a Microsoft OS installed. Jay, Can't you read? In my email, only few days ago, I've posted: ---begin Currently, os-less desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav --end I swear, I'm beginning to suspect you've been invaded by zombies. -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:19:25 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:19:25 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070112031925.GA30778@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 11:18:35PM -0500, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > No. The market is not free, that is the issue. And the issue has been > > abjudicated: Microsoft lost. The question before us is whether to > > enforce the law, or loose root on the machines in our houses. > adjucated. > lose. > > When you get excited, you act like Ruben. :) > That's the best you can do? Your really an ass all the time 24/7. I wasn't even reading this thread and your oderous rancour showed up on the very first message. There are a lot of nice people in this world, but your not one of them. Ruben -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:25:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (WJ Gates) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:25:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> On Thursday 11 January 2007 07:55, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > Since there's no allegation of "restraint of trade" among the linux > vendors, and assuming efficient market hypothesis, it means that it really > *does* cost 500$ to install linux on bare hardware. A couple of months ago, emperorlinux was selling a Dell D420 ultraportable with their "custom-kernel and driver" service (dual-booted w/ Windows XP Home) for about $200 more than Dell's regular price w/ WinXP Home. All things considered, for a notebook anyway, that seems like a reasonable premium to have things "just work". Since Dell was at the time offering a $300 reduction, I went with bare metal. I've noticed, though, that as the "custom notebook" products age, their price differential increases. FWIW. Jay From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:34:13 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:34:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> They all cost more than the same hardware with a Microsoft OS installed. > Jay, > > Can't you read? In my email, only few days ago, I've posted: > > ---begin > Currently, os-less > desktops are 30$ cheaper than corresponding windows machine. Compare: > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=anavml > http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/optix?~ck=anav > --end > > I swear, I'm beginning to suspect you've been invaded by zombies. > > -alex I priced boxes yesterday. Yesterday the no OS boxes cost more. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:52:29 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (WJ Gates) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:52:29 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> References: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200701112252.29619.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> On Thursday 11 January 2007 22:25, WJ Gates wrote: > Since Dell was at the time offering a > $300 reduction, I went with bare metal. Oops, forgot all about Windows! Well, as much as I like the thought of a Windows-less computer (my desktop will never run it), it's still a "Windows world." Jay From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:53:57 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:53:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> References: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, WJ Gates wrote: > On Thursday 11 January 2007 07:55, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: >> Since there's no allegation of "restraint of trade" among the linux >> vendors, and assuming efficient market hypothesis, it means that it really >> *does* cost 500$ to install linux on bare hardware. > > A couple of months ago, emperorlinux was selling a Dell D420 > ultraportable with their "custom-kernel and driver" service > (dual-booted w/ Windows XP Home) for about $200 more than > Dell's regular price w/ WinXP Home. All things considered, for > a notebook anyway, that seems like a reasonable premium to have > things "just work". Since Dell was at the time offering a $300 > reduction, I went with bare metal. > > I've noticed, though, that as the "custom notebook" products > age, their price differential increases. > > FWIW. > > Jay I do not understand. Did you buy a no OS laptop from Dell for three hundred dollars less than the same laptop with a Microsoft OS on the hardware? Also, what is the sign of "price differential"? When I looked and asked Dell yesterday, in all cases, the no OS laptop cost more than a bundle of the same hardware with a Microsoft OS installed. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 22:57:36 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Lindsay Hausner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:57:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Off Topic - office furniture In-Reply-To: <45A6FAC5.2010007@joemaffia.com> Message-ID: <600124.51481.qm@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm with C.O.R.E., the Congress of Racial Equality. We are a 501c3 non-profit and will be glad to take it off your hands. We host the nation's most distinguished Martin Luther King Day celebration so we're a little busy this week but I'll be in touch the week after next. lh.. --- "Joseph A. Maffia" wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > My office is moving the end of this month - we will > have many file > cabinets, chairs, and miscellaneous office furniture > for free - only > condition is that it gets picked up before Jan 26th. > We are located on > East 51st st in Manhattan. > > In addition, we have an old phone system, a few > printers and some really > old computers. First come first served. > > Please contact me off list. > > Thanks > > Joe > > > - -- > www.joemaffia.com > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - > http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFFpvrE1Zo2InkR90QRAkFgAKCfJlcgk9kOjUKmpV8dfZ6021Yp8gCfZ2bB > ZOU130GAkOTiNTpisVXbUH0= > =RDZy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: > http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at > nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at > http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 23:00:09 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:00:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Off Topic - office furniture In-Reply-To: <600124.51481.qm@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45A6FAC5.2010007@joemaffia.com> <600124.51481.qm@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18d205ed0701112000x6b48f48fqfb285ffdc7deeafe@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/07, Lindsay Hausner wrote: > I'm with C.O.R.E., the Congress of Racial Equality. > We are a 501c3 non-profit and will be glad to take it > off your hands. We host the nation's most > distinguished Martin Luther King Day celebration so > we're a little busy this week but I'll be in touch the > week after next. > > lh.. > > --- "Joseph A. Maffia" wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > My office is moving the end of this month - we will > > have many file > > cabinets, chairs, and miscellaneous office furniture > > for free - only > > condition is that it gets picked up before Jan 26th. > > We are located on > > East 51st st in Manhattan. > > > > In addition, we have an old phone system, a few > > printers and some really > > old computers. First come first served. > > > > Please contact me off list. > > > > Thanks > > > > Joe > > > > > > - -- > > www.joemaffia.com > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) > > Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - > > http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > > iD8DBQFFpvrE1Zo2InkR90QRAkFgAKCfJlcgk9kOjUKmpV8dfZ6021Yp8gCfZ2bB > > ZOU130GAkOTiNTpisVXbUH0= > > =RDZy > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: > > http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at > > nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at > > http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > Hello! Take what off? And besides Lindsay the gentleman did state off list. Which I did. -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 23:36:29 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (WJ Gates) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:36:29 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: References: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200701112336.29574.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> On Thursday 11 January 2007 22:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > I do not understand. Did you buy a no OS laptop from Dell for > three hundred dollars less than the same laptop with a Microsoft > OS on the hardware? Sorry for the confusion. Both offerings came with Windows XP Home. The $300 reduction was a sale offer. So, at the time, the cost differential was a total of $500. Something to consider, though, from a mass-marketing perspective: If you offer a notebook running anything-but-Windows at a lower cost, and people buy it without understanding the practical differences (no Windows software support, no winmodem support, flakey suspend-to-RAM, etc.), there are going to be a lot of unhappy customers you have to deal with. And, although I don't like saying it, GNU/Linux (even K/Ubuntu) is not "for the masses" just yet. Most people I know have a hard enough time with Windows XP. Dell does have a little Linux portal ( http://linux.dell.com ), which seems to be fairly new. So maybe there's some genuine internal activism. Note that I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a "money thing." Jay From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 23:38:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Joseph A. Maffia) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:38:18 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Off Topic - office furniture In-Reply-To: <600124.51481.qm@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <600124.51481.qm@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A710BA.8060003@joemaffia.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Lindsay, That is great - I do warn you that it is first come first served. I have gotten several bites from the list and some people are coming tomorrow. Not to scare you cause I am sure some stuff will be left. Contact me again when you can. My work # is 212-980-2470 x16 Joe www.joemaffia.com Lindsay Hausner wrote: > I'm with C.O.R.E., the Congress of Racial Equality. > We are a 501c3 non-profit and will be glad to take it > off your hands. We host the nation's most > distinguished Martin Luther King Day celebration so > we're a little busy this week but I'll be in touch the > week after next. > > lh.. > > --- "Joseph A. Maffia" wrote: > > My office is moving the end of this month - we will > have many file > cabinets, chairs, and miscellaneous office furniture > for free - only > condition is that it gets picked up before Jan 26th. > We are located on > East 51st st in Manhattan. > > In addition, we have an old phone system, a few > printers and some really > old computers. First come first served. > > Please contact me off list. > > Thanks > > Joe > > > -- > www.joemaffia.com >> > _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk >> > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFpxC61Zo2InkR90QRAsazAKCY/9kmW4wR4w2Cu8oC5XygGlp00QCfZFYx yut6T+/hKlOMc7BJhNgIVRk= =TTPE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 23:40:35 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Joseph A. Maffia) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:40:35 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Off Topic - office furniture In-Reply-To: <45A710BA.8060003@joemaffia.com> References: <600124.51481.qm@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45A710BA.8060003@joemaffia.com> Message-ID: <45A71143.4070100@joemaffia.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 sorry www.joemaffia.com Joseph A. Maffia wrote: > Hi Lindsay, > > That is great - I do warn you that it is first come first served. I have > gotten several bites from the list and some people are coming tomorrow. > Not to scare you cause I am sure some stuff will be left. > Contact me again when you can. My work # is 212-980-2470 x16 > > > Joe > > www.joemaffia.com > > > > Lindsay Hausner wrote: > > I'm with C.O.R.E., the Congress of Racial Equality. > > We are a 501c3 non-profit and will be glad to take it > > off your hands. We host the nation's most > > distinguished Martin Luther King Day celebration so > > we're a little busy this week but I'll be in touch the > > week after next. > > > lh.. > > > --- "Joseph A. Maffia" wrote: > > > My office is moving the end of this month - we will > > have many file > > cabinets, chairs, and miscellaneous office furniture > > for free - only > > condition is that it gets picked up before Jan 26th. > > We are located on > > East 51st st in Manhattan. > > > In addition, we have an old phone system, a few > > printers and some really > > old computers. First come first served. > > > Please contact me off list. > > > Thanks > > > Joe > > > > -- > > www.joemaffia.com > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: > http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at > nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at > http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > - ------------------------- _____________________________________________________________________________ Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFpxFC1Zo2InkR90QRAvVjAJwLhtFeIBxUaLx05leaBVKxqwuLoACfc5pD kYZ/2dMXdGxBKBWZxq5gijA= =XzNg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 23:45:50 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Thomas Joseph Re) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 05:45:50 +0100 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> Message-ID: bobmct, thanks for the advice, but the problem is not with the amount of data transferred but rather with the initial domain translation. tj On 1/11/07, R. Mariotti wrote: > > Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > > I am having DNS problems with two linux systems using a D-link G624T > > wireless router. > > One system is a UBUNTU 6.10, the other FEDORA Core 4. > > > > For both systems, when I ping a named address (ie. www.linux.org), I get > a > > pretty quick resolution (<1s) and response. When I try to link to the > same > > address using Firefox or Konqueror, it takes forever (10's of seconds) > to > > resolve. If I plug in the numeric IP to Firefox or Konqueror it is quick > > (<1s). Don't ping and web browsers use the same underlying services for > > name resolution? > > > > Advice? > > TJ > > I'd like to take a stab at this one: > > when you ping you are access a single IP ICMP address and receiving a > single VERY SHORT response message. Hence, the very quick response! > > Now, when you use your browser to access the same URL it is going to the > same IP, but it is accessing the web SERVER and asking for a web page > which in turn is most likely instructing the browser to retrieve dozens > and dozens of items (images, links, counters, rss feeds, etc) not only > from the server YOU referenced, but from any other server that the > developers referenced in their code. Depending on the load and traffic > at these "other" locations and the size of the returned files to you, > the times could be quite long. > > This is how the web works. Granted - there is far too much "trash" > being sent down on MOST web pages anyway! > > Just my $0.02 worth and I hope I'm somewhat right. > > bobmct > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > -- Thomas J. Re www.tomjre.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 11 23:55:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Thomas Joseph Re) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 05:55:54 +0100 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: <45A6ADB5.8040200@saplings.us> References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> <45A6ADB5.8040200@saplings.us> Message-ID: Spencer, I think your answer is the most useful. The problem seems to be when the linux box sends its DNS request to the d-link router. I changed the file /etc/resolve.conf on one of the boxes as follows and things sped up: --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- Slow Response --------- #DNS taken from the router (router is set to use: 193.70.152.25) nameserver 192.168.1.1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- changed to: --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- OK Response --------- #DNS direct nameserver 193.70.152.25 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only problem is that every so offen (during DHCP handshaking?) the file /etc/resolve.conf gets rewritten by both Fedora and Ubuntu. Which files do I have to modify so that the DHCP handshaking process adds a specific DNS server to my resolve.conf file? TJ On 1/11/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > Spencer Ogden wrote: > > R. Mariotti wrote: > > > > Not sure what could cause this problem. Does the router (or maybe ISP) > > attempt to do an web caching that might be slowing things down? Easiest > > thing would be to swap in a different router (if you have one handy that > > you could borrow), or plug one of the machines directly into you > > Cable/DSL modem. See if you can isolate the problem. > > > Another easy thing to check is what DNS servers you are using. > > If your using DLink's DNS server to proxy the requests, try > reconfiguring your boxes to connect directly to your providers DNS > servers. > > You can also do some testing of publicly accessible DNS servers and see > which one works well for you. > > Alternatively, you can install the DNS caching server from TinyDNS on > one of your boxes and configure both of them to use it. If I recall > correctly, their caching server goes directly to the Root servers to > determine the authoriative DNS server for a server name and then pulls > the name from there directly - so you bypass problems with DNS caching > of other servers as well as avoiding DNS hijacking attempts. > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > -- Thomas J. Re www.tomjre.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 08:51:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Adrian Noland) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:51:01 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> <45A6ADB5.8040200@saplings.us> Message-ID: <1d8a0e930701120551r110a5216g943abb5b604d7a42@mail.gmail.com> man dhcpcd: -R Prevents dhcpcd from replacing existing /resolv.conf file. dhcpd.conf option domain-name-servers ns1.example.com, ns2.example.com; On 1/11/07, Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > Spencer, > I think your answer is the most useful. The problem seems to be when the > linux box sends its DNS request to the d-link router. I changed the file > /etc/resolve.conf on one of the boxes as follows and things sped up: > > --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- Slow Response --------- > #DNS taken from the router (router is set to use: 193.70.152.25) > nameserver 192.168.1.1 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > changed to: > --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- OK Response --------- > #DNS direct > nameserver 193.70.152.25 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Only problem is that every so offen (during DHCP handshaking?) the file > /etc/resolve.conf gets rewritten by both Fedora and Ubuntu. > Which files do I have to modify so that the DHCP handshaking process adds a > specific DNS server to my resolve.conf file? > > TJ > > > On 1/11/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > > > Spencer Ogden wrote: > > > R. Mariotti wrote: > > > > > > Not sure what could cause this problem. Does the router (or maybe ISP) > > > attempt to do an web caching that might be slowing things down? Easiest > > > thing would be to swap in a different router (if you have one handy that > > > you could borrow), or plug one of the machines directly into you > > > Cable/DSL modem. See if you can isolate the problem. > > > > > Another easy thing to check is what DNS servers you are using. > > > > If your using DLink's DNS server to proxy the requests, try > > reconfiguring your boxes to connect directly to your providers DNS > > servers. > > > > You can also do some testing of publicly accessible DNS servers and see > > which one works well for you. > > > > Alternatively, you can install the DNS caching server from TinyDNS on > > one of your boxes and configure both of them to use it. If I recall > > correctly, their caching server goes directly to the Root servers to > > determine the authoriative DNS server for a server name and then pulls > > the name from there directly - so you bypass problems with DNS caching > > of other servers as well as avoiding DNS hijacking attempts. > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > > > > -- > Thomas J. Re > www.tomjre.com > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 09:52:09 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:52:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor Message-ID: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> Just curious if there is a good back of the envelope conversion to compare a RISC based system with an Intel or AMD based system. Like going from a 450MHz RISC processor to a 1.6G Intell Pentium, or vice versa. I'm looking to make comparisons on OLD hardware(replacing one cruddy system with another cruddy system :-)) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 10:03:31 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:03:31 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> References: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> Message-ID: Gary, It really just comes down to what you are trying to do with the hardware. I work for a retail chain which deploys 233MHz and 375MHz RISC systems. Although this is some extremely antiquated hardware, it allows us the performance we need. The real key that we noticed with old RISC hardware was upgrading RAM. The change in RAM makes a much more dramatic difference for our application than a change in processor speed. On that same note, I am trying to convince them to move away from AIX on the RISC to Linux on an x86 box. In my initial R&D work (with a 1.5GHz PIII, i think) is that the applications run much faster, but it is hard to make a direct comparison since it is two difference OS's running on different platforms. If you are running Linux on PPC and are looking to move to an intel or AMD box running an x86 version of Linux, I think again you are going to find it hard to compare since the setup is so different. I know this might just be random rambling, but if you want, i would be happy to talk to you about the what I notice as the key difference in the application processing for the two systems. ~Paul On 1/12/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > Just curious if there is a good back of the envelope conversion to > compare a RISC based system with an Intel or AMD based system. > > Like going from a 450MHz RISC processor to a 1.6G Intell Pentium, or > vice versa. > > I'm looking to make comparisons on OLD hardware(replacing one cruddy > system with another cruddy system :-)) > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 10:43:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:43:18 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: References: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> Message-ID: <45A7AC96.6050406@saplings.us> Paul Robbins wrote: > Gary, > It really just comes down to what you are trying to do with the hardware. I > work for a retail chain which deploys 233MHz and 375MHz RISC systems. > Although this is some extremely antiquated hardware, it allows us the > performance we need. The real key that we noticed with old RISC hardware > was upgrading RAM. The change in RAM makes a much more dramatic difference > for our application than a change in processor speed. > > On that same note, I am trying to convince them to move away from AIX on the > RISC to Linux on an x86 box. In my initial R&D work (with a 1.5GHz PIII, i > think) is that the applications run much faster, but it is hard to make a > direct comparison since it is two difference OS's running on different > platforms. If you are running Linux on PPC and are looking to move to an > intel or AMD box running an x86 version of Linux, I think again you are > going to find it hard to compare since the setup is so different. > > I know this might just be random rambling, but if you want, i would be happy > to talk to you about the what I notice as the key difference in the > application processing for the two systems. > Mainly, I've got a lot of database driven apps that are currently running on Windows on old Pentiums. Also, keep in mind, I say databases, we're talking 10-20 databases mainly between 50MB and 250MB in size. These things are small. The systems are crud, the operating system has been compromised six ways to sunday due to the poor decisions of the group(everyone logs on with the same admin userid) and they insist that this is the only way they can write their apps. We need to replace the system, and I'm looking to move them to a unix environment where they will be forced to start thinking about security just a bit. I'm somewhat limited due to the nature of available hardware and software to AIX on a RISC box. There are a ton of virtually free systems with 450 processors that they can get(hardware that has been upgraded and is available within the company for the cost of transport from the location it's stored at to their location)- but without having one on hand I can't compare programs from one system to the other to see if we have performance issues. For a SMALL amount of money, they can get a monster RISC box with 16 1.6G processors. They also have an extremely small time window to do this upgrade in a reasonable manner. I'd rather get them to upgrade to the more expensive box because if it runs well than I can encourage them to move the rest of their cruddy code onto this server and do away with windows entirely. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 10:58:55 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:58:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7AC96.6050406@saplings.us> References: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> <45A7AC96.6050406@saplings.us> Message-ID: Well if the comparison is between multiple RISC 450 systems or one RISC system with multiple 1.6G processors, I would say to definitely go with the single RISC system, less space required and AIX does a good job of being able to allocate each processor (and parts of each processor) to different users/applications/etc. AIX (smit) allows for fairly easy administration. What AIX lacks in limited software, it makes up in ease of administration. If you are sure the database apps will run on AIX and don't foresee any changes to the app, then the large RISC system seems like a winner. On a different note, you could slowly pull each of the current windows systems off the network and configure them into a cluster to run these apps. The admin and setup is much more complex, but no cost is involved. If you are running on old Pentiums and want to switch to RISC 450's, you will see little performance difference, especially if you have a good admin that configures the processor usage correctly. With them being free, that gives you a good benefit. On 1/12/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > Paul Robbins wrote: > > Gary, > > It really just comes down to what you are trying to do with the > hardware. I > > work for a retail chain which deploys 233MHz and 375MHz RISC systems. > > Although this is some extremely antiquated hardware, it allows us the > > performance we need. The real key that we noticed with old RISC > hardware > > was upgrading RAM. The change in RAM makes a much more dramatic > difference > > for our application than a change in processor speed. > > > > On that same note, I am trying to convince them to move away from AIX on > the > > RISC to Linux on an x86 box. In my initial R&D work (with a 1.5GHz PIII, > i > > think) is that the applications run much faster, but it is hard to make > a > > direct comparison since it is two difference OS's running on different > > platforms. If you are running Linux on PPC and are looking to move to > an > > intel or AMD box running an x86 version of Linux, I think again you are > > going to find it hard to compare since the setup is so different. > > > > I know this might just be random rambling, but if you want, i would be > happy > > to talk to you about the what I notice as the key difference in the > > application processing for the two systems. > > > > > Mainly, I've got a lot of database driven apps that are currently > running on Windows on old Pentiums. > Also, keep in mind, I say databases, we're talking 10-20 databases > mainly between 50MB and 250MB in size. These things are small. > > The systems are crud, the operating system has been compromised six ways > to sunday due to the poor decisions of the group(everyone logs on with > the same admin userid) and they insist that this is the only way they > can write their apps. > > We need to replace the system, and I'm looking to move them to a unix > environment where they will be forced to start thinking about security > just a bit. > > I'm somewhat limited due to the nature of available hardware and > software to AIX on a RISC box. There are a ton of virtually free > systems with 450 processors that they can get(hardware that has been > upgraded and is available within the company for the cost of transport > from the location it's stored at to their location)- but without having > one on hand I can't compare programs from one system to the other to see > if we have performance issues. > > For a SMALL amount of money, they can get a monster RISC box with 16 > 1.6G processors. > > > They also have an extremely small time window to do this upgrade in a > reasonable manner. > > I'd rather get them to upgrade to the more expensive box because if it > runs well than I can encourage them to move the rest of their cruddy > code onto this server and do away with windows entirely. > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 11:06:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Thomas Joseph Re) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:06:34 +0100 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: <1d8a0e930701120551r110a5216g943abb5b604d7a42@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> <45A6ADB5.8040200@saplings.us> <1d8a0e930701120551r110a5216g943abb5b604d7a42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: thanks! TJ On 1/12/07, Adrian Noland wrote: > > man dhcpcd: > -R Prevents dhcpcd from replacing existing /resolv.conf > file. > > dhcpd.conf > option domain-name-servers ns1.example.com, ns2.example.com; > > On 1/11/07, Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > > Spencer, > > I think your answer is the most useful. The problem seems to be when > the > > linux box sends its DNS request to the d-link router. I changed the > file > > /etc/resolve.conf on one of the boxes as follows and things sped up: > > > > --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- Slow Response --------- > > #DNS taken from the router (router is set to use: 193.70.152.25) > > nameserver 192.168.1.1 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > changed to: > > --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- OK Response --------- > > #DNS direct > > nameserver 193.70.152.25 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Only problem is that every so offen (during DHCP handshaking?) the file > > /etc/resolve.conf gets rewritten by both Fedora and Ubuntu. > > Which files do I have to modify so that the DHCP handshaking process > adds a > > specific DNS server to my resolve.conf file? > > > > TJ > > > > > > On 1/11/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > > > > > Spencer Ogden wrote: > > > > R. Mariotti wrote: > > > > > > > > Not sure what could cause this problem. Does the router (or maybe > ISP) > > > > attempt to do an web caching that might be slowing things down? > Easiest > > > > thing would be to swap in a different router (if you have one handy > that > > > > you could borrow), or plug one of the machines directly into you > > > > Cable/DSL modem. See if you can isolate the problem. > > > > > > > Another easy thing to check is what DNS servers you are using. > > > > > > If your using DLink's DNS server to proxy the requests, try > > > reconfiguring your boxes to connect directly to your providers DNS > > > servers. > > > > > > You can also do some testing of publicly accessible DNS servers and > see > > > which one works well for you. > > > > > > Alternatively, you can install the DNS caching server from TinyDNS on > > > one of your boxes and configure both of them to use it. If I recall > > > correctly, their caching server goes directly to the Root servers to > > > determine the authoriative DNS server for a server name and then pulls > > > the name from there directly - so you bypass problems with DNS caching > > > of other servers as well as avoiding DNS hijacking attempts. > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Thomas J. Re > > www.tomjre.com > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > -- Thomas J. Re www.tomjre.com From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 11:28:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:28:59 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] Dell refuses to sell me a laptop without a Microsoft OS In-Reply-To: <20070112031925.GA30778@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <20070112031925.GA30778@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20070112162859.GS18663@lenin.net> On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 10:19:25PM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote: > That's the best you can do? Your really an ass all the time 24/7. > I wasn't even reading this thread and your oderous rancour showed up on > the very first message. There are a lot of nice people in this world, but your > not one of them. Invective like this should be in private email. Please send it to him so the rest of us don't have to read this. I'll admit that this thread is showing signs of a literal definition of insanity (doing the same thing and expecting different results) but it hasn't really descended to personal insults until now that I"m aware ("an ass all the time"). I'd like to suggest that people who rile each other up not open email from each other so they don't fall to the temptation of responding before they've had enough coffee or sleep. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 11:41:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:41:18 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] slow DNS with D-link wireless In-Reply-To: References: <45A6A6EE.5080904@fdcx.net> <45A6A98F.2040002@spencerogden.com> <45A6ADB5.8040200@saplings.us> Message-ID: <20070112164118.GT18663@lenin.net> OK, I think I recognize the issue now. The most common ailment is when a linux box has a bogus ipv6 address configured (by default) and so the local resolver sends dns requests for ipv6 as well as ipv4 addresses. The ipv6 requests time out due to lack of supporting records on the roots. Look here for some possible resolutions (disabling the ipv6 stack, for example in the 2006-11-03 01:28pst update by "Seve" looks like a nice final and harmless solution) http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=60870&goto=nextnewest -Peter On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 05:55:54AM +0100, Thomas Joseph Re wrote: > Spencer, > I think your answer is the most useful. The problem seems to be when the > linux box sends its DNS request to the d-link router. I changed the file > /etc/resolve.conf on one of the boxes as follows and things sped up: > > --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- Slow Response --------- > #DNS taken from the router (router is set to use: 193.70.152.25) > nameserver 192.168.1.1 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > changed to: > --------- /etc/resolve.conf ----------- OK Response --------- > #DNS direct > nameserver 193.70.152.25 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Only problem is that every so offen (during DHCP handshaking?) the file > /etc/resolve.conf gets rewritten by both Fedora and Ubuntu. > Which files do I have to modify so that the DHCP handshaking process adds a > specific DNS server to my resolve.conf file? > > TJ > > > On 1/11/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > > > Spencer Ogden wrote: > > > R. Mariotti wrote: > > > > > > Not sure what could cause this problem. Does the router (or maybe ISP) > > > attempt to do an web caching that might be slowing things down? Easiest > > > thing would be to swap in a different router (if you have one handy that > > > you could borrow), or plug one of the machines directly into you > > > Cable/DSL modem. See if you can isolate the problem. > > > > > Another easy thing to check is what DNS servers you are using. > > > > If your using DLink's DNS server to proxy the requests, try > > reconfiguring your boxes to connect directly to your providers DNS > > servers. > > > > You can also do some testing of publicly accessible DNS servers and see > > which one works well for you. > > > > Alternatively, you can install the DNS caching server from TinyDNS on > > one of your boxes and configure both of them to use it. If I recall > > correctly, their caching server goes directly to the Root servers to > > determine the authoriative DNS server for a server name and then pulls > > the name from there directly - so you bypass problems with DNS caching > > of other servers as well as avoiding DNS hijacking attempts. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > > > > > -- > Thomas J. Re > www.tomjre.com > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 12:33:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael B Allen) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:33:18 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> References: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> Message-ID: <20070112123318.1ea60fc5.mba2000@ioplex.com> On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:52:09 -0500 Gary Mort wrote: > Just curious if there is a good back of the envelope conversion to > compare a RISC based system with an Intel or AMD based system. > > Like going from a 450MHz RISC processor to a 1.6G Intell Pentium, or > vice versa. > > I'm looking to make comparisons on OLD hardware(replacing one cruddy > system with another cruddy system :-)) It is interesting to note that modern Intel based processors are in fact RISC cores with extra hardware at the edge to make them look like Intel. Mike -- Michael B Allen PHP Active Directory SSO http://www.ioplex.com/ From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Fri Jan 12 14:17:53 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:17:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Gary Mort wrote: > Just curious if there is a good back of the envelope conversion to > compare a RISC based system with an Intel or AMD based system. > > Like going from a 450MHz RISC processor to a 1.6G Intell Pentium, or > vice versa. > > I'm looking to make comparisons on OLD hardware(replacing one cruddy > system with another cruddy system :-)) This is 2007. Get with the program. Please explain the *business reason* behind replacing very old hardware with more very old hardware. That being said, P4/1.6 will be probably 2-3 times faster (depending on the workload) than 450Mhz (whatever). RISC/CISC distinction is sooo 1980s. Neither are really applicable in today's world. -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 14:06:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Joseph M. Gaffney) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:06:12 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701121406.12778.cucullin@wtfisthat.net> On Friday 12 January 2007 14:17, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > This is 2007. Get with the program. Please explain the *business reason* > behind replacing very old hardware with more very old hardware. Because sometimes it works better. For example, a farmer runs his chicken coop and other things off a linux box (this is not a hypothetical situation btw) - which happens to be a 486. It was cheap, effective, and has been running for years. No, its not RISC/CISC, but it sometimes does make sense to use very old hardware if it damn well works. -Joseph M. Gaffney From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 14:20:56 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:20:56 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <200701121406.12778.cucullin@wtfisthat.net> (Joseph M. Gaffney's message of "Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:06:12 -0500") References: <200701121406.12778.cucullin@wtfisthat.net> Message-ID: <87hcuwuk4n.fsf@nyarlothotep.Belkin> "Joseph M. Gaffney" writes: > On Friday 12 January 2007 14:17, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: >> This is 2007. Get with the program. Please explain the *business >> reason* behind replacing very old hardware with more very old >> hardware. [...] > For example, a farmer runs his chicken coop and other things off a linux box > (this is not a hypothetical situation btw) - which happens to be a 486. It > was cheap, effective, and has been running for years. [...] Well, that's a case for continuing to use it. I'd even see the case for digging up an old 486 to replace the chicken coop machine if the original machine let the magic smoke out. But to replace it with a Microvax II strikes me as really bizarre. > -Joseph M. Gaffney -- Eric From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 14:23:48 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:23:48 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > This is 2007. Get with the program. Please explain the *business reason* > behind replacing very old hardware with more very old hardware. > Well, the current hardware needs to be updated since none of it is available anymore. IE if the motherboard goes, that system is toast and rebuilding it will take a great deal of time and much will be lost(especially since to save money they don't back up all the data on the system). Now, as for replacing old failing hardware with old reliable and replaceable hardware, there you have it. With a replacement system, they can get hardware support and replacements if anything fails. And they get it for very little cost. Now, please don't ask me to explain the business justification for run programs that are funneling and producing millions of dollars in cost savings, yet not being able to justify 5-10k to replace the hardware with new hardware(and note: that funding is all 'fictional' money since they buy the hardware from themselves) However, I have the deal with the reality that this group can't get funding to replace hardware unless it breaks. And then they ask why it broke and why I didn't warn of the problems(I mean I only bring it up in every meeting and send an email to all party members involved every month. Obviously it's not their fault, right? :-)) I also have to deal with the fact that my management doesn't want to drop the project despite the issues(well, ok, they have tried 3 times over the past 7 years and each time instead of dropping it back into their laps, we actually took on more responsibility for managing their systems and monitoring their programs AND cut our budget. Note: I said responsibility, not control. That they have firmly kept.) *shrug* From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 14:27:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:27:59 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> References: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> Message-ID: Well as you said, you don't run a backup due to cost issues. You could do a field test by bringing in the RISC systems and get and migrate a "backup" copy of the databases to the system. At that time you accomplish 2 things. 1) you at least have a snapshot backup of data 2) it allows you to check and see if the RISC system can handle the performance needed. If it can handle it, then you have a working display to show management that the switch would require little cost and minimal effort. On 1/12/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > > This is 2007. Get with the program. Please explain the *business reason* > > behind replacing very old hardware with more very old hardware. > > > > Well, the current hardware needs to be updated since none of it is > available anymore. IE if the motherboard goes, that system is toast and > rebuilding it will take a great deal of time and much will be > lost(especially since to save money they don't back up all the data on > the system). > > Now, as for replacing old failing hardware with old reliable and > replaceable hardware, there you have it. With a replacement system, > they can get hardware support and replacements if anything fails. And > they get it for very little cost. > > Now, please don't ask me to explain the business justification for run > programs that are funneling and producing millions of dollars in cost > savings, yet not being able to justify 5-10k to replace the hardware > with new hardware(and note: that funding is all 'fictional' money since > they buy the hardware from themselves) > > However, I have the deal with the reality that this group can't get > funding to replace hardware unless it breaks. And then they ask why it > broke and why I didn't warn of the problems(I mean I only bring it up in > every meeting and send an email to all party members involved every > month. Obviously it's not their fault, right? :-)) > > I also have to deal with the fact that my management doesn't want to > drop the project despite the issues(well, ok, they have tried 3 times > over the past 7 years and each time instead of dropping it back into > their laps, we actually took on more responsibility for managing their > systems and monitoring their programs AND cut our budget. Note: I said > responsibility, not control. That they have firmly kept.) > > *shrug* > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 14:55:24 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:55:24 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: References: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> Message-ID: <45A7E7AC.3040003@saplings.us> Paul Robbins wrote: > Well as you said, you don't run a backup due to cost issues. You could do a > field test by bringing in the RISC systems and get and migrate a "backup" > copy of the databases to the system. At that time you accomplish 2 things. > 1) you at least have a snapshot backup of data 2) it allows you to check and > see if the RISC system can handle the performance needed. If it can handle > it, then you have a working display to show management that the switch would > require little cost and minimal effort. > Even a free system comes with costs. Basically the system and software is 'free'. The shipping and installation time has a cost. My time of course is 'free'. If the system was sitting in the room there already and available, I'd just start testing the apps on the 'new' system and see how they run(why not just test across the wan? Because that gets traffic charges. :-)) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 15:00:16 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:00:16 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: References: <45A7A099.2090207@saplings.us> <45A7AC96.6050406@saplings.us> Message-ID: <45A7E8D0.1060305@vnetworx.net> Paul Robbins wrote: > If you are running on old Pentiums and want to switch to RISC 450's, you > will see little performance difference, especially if you have a good admin > that configures the processor usage correctly. With them being free, that > gives you a good benefit. It needs to be said that old computers are never free in this regard. They typically will burn up substantially far more money in electricity and climate control than replacing them with fewer, more electrically efficient boxes, and usually that's just the beginning of your savings if there's a lot of them. That said, we've all been in the OP's shoes. It doesn't sound to me like doing the right thing is on the table at all. The situation is what it is, and he's got to make the best of the set of choices in front of him. When you're working with people who don't understand money[1], they come up with odd (costly) ideas about how to conserve it. - Ron [1] I worked for a market data company in the financial industry many years ago, that didn't know the difference between making money, spending money, and saving money, and they had the 3 bankruptcies to prove it. Irony. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 15:00:29 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:00:29 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7E7AC.3040003@saplings.us> References: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> <45A7E7AC.3040003@saplings.us> Message-ID: OK, go maybe I am confused Gary. What decision are you trying to make and how can I/we help? On 1/12/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > Paul Robbins wrote: > > Well as you said, you don't run a backup due to cost issues. You could > do a > > field test by bringing in the RISC systems and get and migrate a > "backup" > > copy of the databases to the system. At that time you accomplish 2 > things. > > 1) you at least have a snapshot backup of data 2) it allows you to check > and > > see if the RISC system can handle the performance needed. If it can > handle > > it, then you have a working display to show management that the switch > would > > require little cost and minimal effort. > > > > Even a free system comes with costs. Basically the system and software > is 'free'. The shipping and installation time has a cost. My time of > course is 'free'. > > If the system was sitting in the room there already and available, I'd > just start testing the apps on the 'new' system and see how they run(why > not just test across the wan? Because that gets traffic charges. :-)) > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 15:15:50 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:15:50 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" In-Reply-To: <20070111223030.GB26196@localhost> References: <20070111143001.704F54015@mail.nylug.org> <20070111144030.GA30966@washoe.onerussian.com> <45A65D54.1010200@vnetworx.net> <20070111223030.GB26196@localhost> Message-ID: <45A7EC76.5060500@vnetworx.net> Kevin Mark wrote: > Is this the Borg Flu? You know the one that causes space-time anomolies It's the flu that causes overheating and anomolies in the digestive system. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 15:16:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:16:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: <200701112336.29574.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> References: <200701112225.33995.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> <200701112336.29574.wjg779-nylug@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, WJ Gates wrote: > On Thursday 11 January 2007 22:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> I do not understand. Did you buy a no OS laptop from Dell for >> three hundred dollars less than the same laptop with a Microsoft >> OS on the hardware? > > Sorry for the confusion. Both offerings came with Windows XP > Home. The $300 reduction was a sale offer. So, at the time, the > cost differential was a total of $500. Yes. Dell hardware with a Microsoft OS installed always costs less than the same hardware without a Microsoft OS. > > Something to consider, though, from a mass-marketing > perspective: If you offer a notebook running > anything-but-Windows at a lower cost, and people buy it without > understanding the practical differences (no Windows software > support, no winmodem support, flakey suspend-to-RAM, etc.), > there are going to be a lot of unhappy customers you have to > deal with. And, although I don't like saying it, GNU/Linux > (even K/Ubuntu) is not "for the masses" just yet. Most people I > know have a hard enough time with Windows XP. The claim that some people would not like a particular free OS is doubtless true. But of course, most people who run a Microsoft OS do not like it. The reason people run a Microsoft OS is because the Microsoft OS came with the hardware, already installed on the hard drive. ad mass marketing: we should not give up before getting to the battlefield. > > Dell does have a little Linux portal ( http://linux.dell.com ), > which seems to be fairly new. So maybe there's some genuine > internal activism. No. I think these pages, which are not indexed by Dell in the Dell search engine, are there just to give Microsoft false evidence in various continuing antitrust actions. Dell will always try to prevent you from buying a box without a Microsoft OS on the box. First Dell claims they have no such boxes for sale. Then after you point out the webpage, Dell will still claim they have none available for sale. Finally, if you persist, and are lucky, Dell will offer a box with no OS for more money than the same hardware with a Microsoft OS. > > Note that I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a "money thing." > > Jay Yes. Our side could make use of some money, and so far, Microsoft is stopping us from getting the sales we need. oo--JS. From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Fri Jan 12 17:00:17 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:00:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, WJ Gates wrote: > > > On Thursday 11 January 2007 22:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> I do not understand. Did you buy a no OS laptop from Dell for three > >> hundred dollars less than the same laptop with a Microsoft OS on the > >> hardware? > > > > > Sorry for the confusion. Both offerings came with Windows XP Home. The > > $300 reduction was a sale offer. So, at the time, the cost > > differential was a total of $500. > > Yes. Dell hardware with a Microsoft OS installed always costs less than > the same hardware without a Microsoft OS. Jay, first time when you said it, I posted the link to prove it is false. Second time you said it, I presumed you didn't see it. Now, you are repeating the falsehood, knowingly. What's in it for you? -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 16:11:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:11:18 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: References: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> <45A7E7AC.3040003@saplings.us> Message-ID: <45A7F976.5060704@saplings.us> Paul Robbins wrote: > OK, go maybe I am confused Gary. What decision are you trying to make and > how can I/we help? > Right now I'm just trying to get an idea of what speed processor/memory they need to replace an old dual pentium system(which ironically has locked me out so I can't check the processor specs, I think it was a 1.6 or 1.8 Pentium III with 2G of memory). Every system on their list has loads of memory and hard drive space. So I'm really looking to see if there is any easy rule of thumb(ie don't use a 400Mhz RISC CPU as it's too slow, if the speed is at least equal to the current speed there should be no worries, etc). I've found a number of sites that do comparisons, but they compare modern systems to modern systems(go figure, their advertising for computer sellers and they compare systems you can actually buy! What are the odds? :-)) Naturally, I was hoping for some magic formula, but I expect the truth is it's going to be pretty much hit or miss and it really SHOULD be tested - but based on budget they don't have much of a choice. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 16:16:20 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Paul Robbins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:16:20 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7F976.5060704@saplings.us> References: <45A7E044.9070509@saplings.us> <45A7E7AC.3040003@saplings.us> <45A7F976.5060704@saplings.us> Message-ID: IMHO, you will notice far too much of a speed reduction by switching from a dual PIII system to a 450MHz RISC system, so in that sense, the change does not seem worthwhile. On 1/12/07, Gary Mort wrote: > > Paul Robbins wrote: > > OK, go maybe I am confused Gary. What decision are you trying to make > and > > how can I/we help? > > > > > Right now I'm just trying to get an idea of what speed processor/memory > they need to replace an old dual pentium system(which ironically has > locked me out so I can't check the processor specs, I think it was a 1.6 > or 1.8 Pentium III with 2G of memory). > > Every system on their list has loads of memory and hard drive space. > So I'm really looking to see if there is any easy rule of thumb(ie don't > use a 400Mhz RISC CPU as it's too slow, if the speed is at least equal > to the current speed there should be no worries, etc). > > I've found a number of sites that do comparisons, but they compare > modern systems to modern systems(go figure, their advertising for > computer sellers and they compare systems you can actually buy! What > are the odds? :-)) > > Naturally, I was hoping for some magic formula, but I expect the truth > is it's going to be pretty much hit or miss and it really SHOULD be > tested - but based on budget they don't have much of a choice. > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Fri Jan 12 17:26:20 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:26:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Comparing RISC with CICS processor In-Reply-To: <45A7F976.5060704@saplings.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Gary Mort wrote: > Paul Robbins wrote: > > OK, go maybe I am confused Gary. What decision are you trying to make and > > how can I/we help? > > > > > Right now I'm just trying to get an idea of what speed processor/memory > they need to replace an old dual pentium system(which ironically has > locked me out so I can't check the processor specs, I think it was a 1.6 > or 1.8 Pentium III with 2G of memory). > > Every system on their list has loads of memory and hard drive space. > So I'm really looking to see if there is any easy rule of thumb(ie don't > use a 400Mhz RISC CPU as it's too slow, if the speed is at least equal > to the current speed there should be no worries, etc). Yes, it will be much slower. Even 16*400Mhz going to suck. (Although, it depends on what your application profile is. If it is very heavily parallelizable, it might not suck that bad. But that is unlikely). In words of Seymour Cray: "If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use: Two strong oxen or 1024 chickens?" > > I've found a number of sites that do comparisons, but they compare > modern systems to modern systems(go figure, their advertising for > computer sellers and they compare systems you can actually buy! What > are the odds? :-)) > > Naturally, I was hoping for some magic formula, but I expect the truth > is it's going to be pretty much hit or miss and it really SHOULD be > tested - but based on budget they don't have much of a choice. www.spec.org as far as benchmarks go. However, without knowing more about the exact system in question, it is impossible to predict anything. You didn't say whether the system is CPU bound, memory bound, memory-bandwidth-bound, disk-io bound, etc... -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 17:53:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Micros50) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:53:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Ghost for Linux Message-ID: <1168642431.17058.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> I am looking for a good, relatively easy to use backup utility that will let me create an image of the existing hard drive, it's partitions, etc. so I can quickly recreate them in the inevitable future that the existing drive crashes. Thus far I have checked out "Ghost for Linux"/ g4l. It looks pretty interesting and pretty much along the lines of what I am looking for. Just wondering is anyone else is using it and, if so, whattaya think ?? Any good ? If no, anything else ? mylar From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 18:23:11 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kiryl Hakhovich) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:23:11 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Ghost for Linux In-Reply-To: <1168642431.17058.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> References: <1168642431.17058.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: <45A8185F.7000902@bsolution.net> Micros50 wrote: > I am looking for a good, relatively easy to use backup utility that will > let me create an image of the existing hard drive, it's partitions, etc. > so I can quickly recreate them in the inevitable future that the > existing drive crashes. > > Thus far I have checked out "Ghost for Linux"/ g4l. It looks pretty > interesting and pretty much along the lines of what I am looking for. > Just wondering is anyone else is using it and, if so, whattaya think ?? > Any good ? If no, anything else ? > > i have used in the past g4l, it's fine i guess. However it comes down to how often you need to make images of partitions... at the end of the day - i think nothing easier/faster/better than dd if=.... of= also check out this distribution - very helpful http://www.inside-security.de/insert_en.html Kiryl From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 21:47:14 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:47:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, WJ Gates wrote: >> >>> On Thursday 11 January 2007 22:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>>> I do not understand. Did you buy a no OS laptop from Dell for three >>>> hundred dollars less than the same laptop with a Microsoft OS on the >>>> hardware? >> >>> >>> Sorry for the confusion. Both offerings came with Windows XP Home. The >>> $300 reduction was a sale offer. So, at the time, the cost >>> differential was a total of $500. >> >> Yes. Dell hardware with a Microsoft OS installed always costs less than >> the same hardware without a Microsoft OS. > Jay, first time when you said it, I posted the link to prove it is false. > Second time you said it, I presumed you didn't see it. Now, you are > repeating the falsehood, knowingly. What's in it for you? > > -alex No. Indeed the hardware costs the same and the 125 dollar discount is the same. And the FreeDOS version, called the Optiplex 740n, costs 518 dollars. And the Microsoft OS version, called the Optiplex 740, costs 548 dollars. But if you buy the Microsoft OS version, you get free shipping and handling. And if you put into the search box on http://www.dell.com "Optiplex 740n" you get back no pages with computers for sale. You do get back two pages offering for sale fine looking Samsung monitors. But if you put in "Optiplex 740" you get the box with the Microsoft OS installed, and no hint of the existence of the Optiplex 740n. Let me admit that I might, with some coaching from you, be able to call Dell and get the Optiplex 740n with free shipping, so that my cost is thirty dollars less than the cost of the Optiplex 740. If you put "Open-Source Desktops" into the search box on http://www.dell.com you get back no pages. And on the 'no results returned' page, we have a simple clear statement: Dell recommends Windows XP Professional How did you find the Optiplex 740n? oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 12 22:04:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:04:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Dell_refuses_to_sell_me_a_laptop_with?= =?iso-8859-1?q?out=09a=09Microsoft_OS?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > >> On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, WJ Gates wrote: >>> >>>> On Thursday 11 January 2007 22:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>>>> I do not understand. Did you buy a no OS laptop from Dell for >>>>> three >>>>> hundred dollars less than the same laptop with a Microsoft OS on >>>>> the >>>>> hardware? >>> >>>> >>>> Sorry for the confusion. Both offerings came with Windows XP >>>> Home. The >>>> $300 reduction was a sale offer. So, at the time, the cost >>>> differential was a total of $500. >>> >>> Yes. Dell hardware with a Microsoft OS installed always costs >>> less than >>> the same hardware without a Microsoft OS. >> Jay, first time when you said it, I posted the link to prove it is >> false. >> Second time you said it, I presumed you didn't see it. Now, you are >> repeating the falsehood, knowingly. What's in it for you? >> >> -alex > > No. Indeed the hardware costs the same and the 125 dollar > discount is the same. And the FreeDOS version, called the > Optiplex 740n, costs 518 dollars. And the Microsoft OS version, > called the Optiplex 740, costs 548 dollars. But if you buy the > Microsoft OS version, you get free shipping and handling. > > And if you put into the search box on > > http://www.dell.com > > "Optiplex 740n" you get back no pages with computers for sale. > You do get back two pages offering for sale fine looking Samsung > monitors. But if you put in "Optiplex 740" you get the box with > the Microsoft OS installed, and no hint of the existence of the > Optiplex 740n. > > Let me admit that I might, with some coaching from you, be able > to call Dell and get the Optiplex 740n with free shipping, so > that my cost is thirty dollars less than the cost of the Optiplex > 740. I did not read the next line after "free shipping", on the page for the Microsoft laden box: FREE Flat Panel Upgrade oo--JS. > > > If you put "Open-Source Desktops" into the search box on > > http://www.dell.com > > you get back no pages. And on the 'no results returned' page, we > have a simple clear statement: > > Dell recommends Windows XP Professional > > How did you find the Optiplex 740n? > > oo--JS. > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 13 11:49:40 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Micros50) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 11:49:40 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Ghost for Linux In-Reply-To: <45A8185F.7000902@bsolution.net> References: <1168642431.17058.88.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> <45A8185F.7000902@bsolution.net> Message-ID: <1168706980.7474.0.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 18:23, Kiryl Hakhovich wrote: > Micros50 wrote: > > I am looking for a good, relatively easy to use backup utility that will > > let me create an image of the existing hard drive, it's partitions, etc. > > so I can quickly recreate them in the inevitable future that the > > existing drive crashes. > > > > Thus far I have checked out "Ghost for Linux"/ g4l. It looks pretty > > interesting and pretty much along the lines of what I am looking for. > > Just wondering is anyone else is using it and, if so, whattaya think ?? > > Any good ? If no, anything else ? > > > > > i have used in the past g4l, it's fine i guess. However it comes down to > how often you need to make images of partitions... at the end of the day > - i think nothing easier/faster/better than dd if=.... of= > > also check out this distribution - very helpful > http://www.inside-security.de/insert_en.html > > Kiryl > Thanks, I'll check it out. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 13 23:56:14 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Seth Rothenberg) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:56:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] DST patches for Open Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38379.10.248.126.200.1168750574.squirrel@10.248.126.200> At work, they are treating DST changes almost as seriously as Y2K was treated. I explained to some of the people impacted that UNIX time isn't changing, just the users' VIEW of time. I actually got an email from someone at work saying how to push the clock up to March to test, then push it back. *NOT A GOOD IDEA!* I offered to share with them my safer ways to test. First, I tested with Perl, because I could write a program that worked the first or 2nd try. (I think I needed to pay the Sin Tax before it worked :-) Then, I needed to test on a server that doesn't seem to have a working PERL install, so I wrote a C program. Both are attached. I hope this is useful to people. The script and/or program have been tested on various systems, before and after patching for DST2007, and have indicated the status correctly. (Gotta love Debian: "apt-get update;apt-get upgrade" :-) Note, systems at work are Solaris and AIX. Note2, just because these scripts are accurate for what they test, does not mean they test everything. However, it is my assumption that most apps use the UNIX library (time.h, etc), and that it is updated. Each person weighs his concern of the danger level. on his application. Does anyone know how to sumulate swinging robot arms and lights? -=-==-=-=--=-==-=-=--=-==-=-=--=-==-=-=--=-==-=-=- #!/usr/bin/perl -w require "ctime.pl"; $t= 1173596400; # One second past 1:59:59 Mar 11, 2007 print ctime($t-1); print ctime($t); $newtime = ctime($t); if ($newtime !~ /3:00:00/) { print "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!\n"; } else { print "Server is ready for DST in 2007\n"; } =========================== % cat timetest.c #include #include time_t mytime[1]; main() { char *timestr; *mytime = 1173596400; /* One second past 1:59:59 Mar 11, 2007 */ puts(timestr=ctime(mytime)); puts(""); if (timestr[12] == '3') { puts ("Server OK for 2007\n"); } else { puts ("Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!\n"); } puts(""); } From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 14 11:28:39 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (James Keenan) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:28:39 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Perl Seminar NY Tuesday January 16: Agenda Message-ID: <895F41E0-09DB-4DBF-BAB7-69DA14FACA06@verizon.net> Perl Seminar NY meets this Tuesday at 6:15 at NYPC Users Group, 481 8 Ave (Ramada New Yorker, Suite 550-51), at West 34 St. We have two excellent presentations: (1) Mark Sullivan: "use, require, do, and eval" "use" is built on "require", which is built on "do", which is built on "eval". So they share a lot in common, but they offer different features and different restrictions. Mark will talk about how they're built, where each is appropriate, and how to handle each when it goes wrong. (2) Perrin Harkins: "Low Maintenance Perl" Perl is a language flexible enough to let you make your own decisions about how to use it. You can optimize your code for performance, for compactness, or even for entertainment value. But what if you want to optimize it for not getting support calls in the middle of the night about strange behavior on your web site? What if you want to optimize it for spending your Saturday at the movies instead of in the debugger? This talk will show you how to choose a dialect of Perl that suits your preferred level of risk. It won't be a simple prescription, but you will learn why avoiding certain constructs can lead to fewer nasty surprises and less difficulty integrating code written by a team. A little planning and a willingness to choose practical solutions over magic can really pay off in reduced debugging time. Perl gives you a lot of rope, but it's not too late to learn some new knots. Hope you can attend! Jim Keenan From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 14 11:35:48 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (James Keenan) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:35:48 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Phalanx Phoenix Message-ID: <78BDB7BB-F180-45FA-B88D-8345187FC753@verizon.net> When I spoke at nylug a couple of months back, I mentioned that Perl Seminar NY was developing a project in which we would train new maintainers for Perl extensions found on the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN). That project as come to fruition: "Phalanx Phoenix: Mentored Maintenance of CPAN Modules." You can read a full description of it here: http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=586406. We held our first meeting yesterday, and one of our new hoplites came from nylug! You can read about yesterday's meeting here: http://thenceforward.net/pipermail/module-maintainers/2007-January/ 000018.html If you're interested in becoming a maintainer of open source code, or if you'd just like to follow our progress, sign up on this list: http://thenceforward.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/module-maintainers. Jim Keenan From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Jan 14 14:53:21 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Richard Ibbotson) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:53:21 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] This Month's Meeting In-Reply-To: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> References: <1168452698.407.11.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <200701141953.24962.richard.ibbotson@gmail.com> Hi > As some of you may already know, some of us have been busting our > own asses, while kissing other asses trying to get us a new home. > Google has accepted out ass kissing and will now be our official > new home starting this month. They are also providing us with food > and drinks. HOORAY!!! This is so good. This looks really good and just round the corner from my favourite NY diner. I can't wait to get out to New York later this year and try out the new venue. Hope JIm Gleason is well and getting better. -- Richard www.sheflug.org.uk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 11:00:47 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:00:47 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? Message-ID: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> I have a situation where I need to create one huge PDF file from many, many small single page PDFs in a given directory. pdftk lets me do this simply with the command: pdftk *.pdf cat output output.pdf What I'm concerned with is getting "Argument list too long". Typically I'd use something like xargs or make a shell script that looped and appended a page to the end of a temp doc. Neither is a workable solution here - xargs will issue the command multiple times, according to the manpage. And due to issues with pdftk (and the pdf format in general), doing the loop-append shuffle is horrendously slow after a couple of hundred iterations. My questions: * What is the limit on the arg list, anyway? Can't seem to find a definitive answer via Google. Is this OS or bash imposed? * If this is a bash limit, is there another shell that isn't so limited? Is my solution: differentshell -c pdftk *.pdf cat output output.pdf? * Is there any way to use xargs to break the limit, but not execute the command multiple times? Or is there a different "helper" for this situation? * Is there another limit to be concerned with - as in the size of the command line? Thanks. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 11:48:02 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Eric Moore) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:48:02 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <871wlwuth9.fsf@nyarlothotep.Belkin> jh writes: > * What is the limit on the arg list, anyway? Can't seem to find a > definitive answer via Google. Is this OS or bash imposed? OS. > * Is there any way to use xargs to break the limit, but not execute > the command multiple times? Not that I can think of. The point is to be able to get around the OS limit. My solution for problems like this is something like: ls *pdf | split -a 4 - temp- for tempfile in temp-* do pdftk $(cat tempfile) cat output ${tempfile}.pdf done pdftk temp-*.pdfcat output output.pdf this will work for up to 1 million files, above that you need another layer of temp files. -- Eric From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 13:11:59 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Seth Rothenberg) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:11:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] video Message-ID: <51818.10.248.126.200.1168884719.squirrel@10.248.126.200> I got the video working with backports.org (thanks google) deb http://www.backports.org/debian sarge-backports main contrib apt-get -t sarge-backports install flashplugin-nonfree (needed to use aumix to fix volume) Now, I would like to clean up my apt sources of all the things that did not help. Is there a command that will list which packages came from where? - then I could delete the sources that I don't need - or I could ask on this list which sources I ought to use... Thanks Seth From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 14:01:14 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Rajesh Menon) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:01:14 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] video In-Reply-To: <51818.10.248.126.200.1168884719.squirrel@10.248.126.200> References: <51818.10.248.126.200.1168884719.squirrel@10.248.126.200> Message-ID: <45ABCF7A.8010609@gmail.com> Seth Rothenberg wrote: > Now, I would like to clean up my apt sources of all the things > that did not help. Is there a command that will list > which packages came from where? - then I could delete the > sources that I don't need - or I could ask on this list > which sources I ought to use... > I don't know what you mean by "did not help". Do you mean "broken"? Or just some extra packages that weren't needed from some earlier test installs? You can take a look at the packages that come from the various sources listed in your sources.list under /var/lib/apt/lists/*_Packages Individual package information and dependencies can be checked with `apt-get showpkg `. You'll also see where `pkgname` came from in the output this gives out. Additionally, apt-get clean ? apt-get autoclean ?. But they're just for local repository cleanup. And, for removing packages one-by-one, `dpkg -r -P `. Although this could lead to more broken pkg's ... Hth. -- Rajesh Menon From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 20:30:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:30:17 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <871wlwuth9.fsf@nyarlothotep.Belkin> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <871wlwuth9.fsf@nyarlothotep.Belkin> Message-ID: <200701152030.18650.sunny@opencurve.org> On Monday 15 January 2007 11:48, Eric Moore wrote: > jh writes: > > * What is the limit on the arg list, anyway? Can't seem to find a > > definitive answer via Google. Is this OS or bash imposed? > > OS. getconf ARG_MAX (reported in bytes) -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 22:09:03 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:09:03 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <200701152030.18650.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <871wlwuth9.fsf@nyarlothotep.Belkin> <200701152030.18650.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20070116030902.GA21684@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 08:30:17PM -0500, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Monday 15 January 2007 11:48, Eric Moore wrote: > > jh writes: > > > * What is the limit on the arg list, anyway? Can't seem to find a > > > definitive answer via Google. Is this OS or bash imposed? > > > > OS. > > getconf ARG_MAX > > (reported in bytes) > I get 131072 or about 128kb. getconf is part of the debian libc6 package and includes these binaries: /usr/bin/iconv /usr/bin/locale /usr/bin/localedef /usr/bin/getent /usr/bin/getconf /usr/bin/catchsegv /usr/bin/tzselect /usr/bin/ldd /usr/bin/lddlibc4 /usr/bin/zdump /usr/bin/rpcinfo /usr/sbin/zic /usr/sbin/iconvconfig /usr/sbin/tzconfig /sbin/ldconfig This page[0] listed other system variables. Ya learn something new everyday... cheers, Kev [0] http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/UserInfo/Resources/Hardware/IBMp690/IBM/usr/share/man/info/en_US/a_doc_lib/cmds/aixcmds2/getconf.htm - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFrEHOv8UcC1qRZVMRAmgaAKCX+XjbIYUfoSX2BNAdHrpNtpoJHQCfex4E fWZ5+SQKuw4smO/yZfWYl44= =CfYF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jan 15 22:42:20 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:42:20 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] video In-Reply-To: <51818.10.248.126.200.1168884719.squirrel@10.248.126.200> References: <51818.10.248.126.200.1168884719.squirrel@10.248.126.200> Message-ID: <20070116034220.GB21684@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 01:11:59PM -0500, Seth Rothenberg wrote: > > I got the video working with backports.org (thanks google) > > deb http://www.backports.org/debian sarge-backports main contrib > > apt-get -t sarge-backports install flashplugin-nonfree > > (needed to use aumix to fix volume) > > > Now, I would like to clean up my apt sources of all the things > that did not help. Is there a command that will list > which packages came from where? - then I could delete the > sources that I don't need - or I could ask on this list > which sources I ought to use... > > Thanks Hi Seth, 1. remove a repository entry from /etc/apt/sources.list If you want to no longer use packages from a repository, you edit /etc/apt/sources.list and either remove them or comment them out. Then you need to 'apt-get update' to make it permenate. 1. Find out from what repository a file came $ apt-cache policy libc6 libc6: Installed: 2.3.6.ds1-9 Candidate: 2.3.6.ds1-9 Version table: 2.5-0exp3 0 1 http://ftp.debian.org experimental/main Packages *** 2.3.6.ds1-9 0 500 ftp://ftp.us.debian.org sid/main Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status this shows by the asterixs that libc6 cames from /var/lib/dpkg/status which came from ftp://ftp.us.debian.org. 3. purge the package. If you want to remove a packages and its configuration files, use: apt-get --purge remove ... or if you use aptitude, aptitude purge ... cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFrEmcv8UcC1qRZVMRAlE1AJsFR2vSrIvHhMXFmoh+QgJg+fQlzgCgjzQd kgA27Xf42uicCv+a7sudCAo= =WB/u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 08:43:45 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 05:43:45 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 11:00:47AM -0500, jh wrote: > * What is the limit on the arg list, anyway? Can't seem to find a > definitive answer via Google. Is this OS or bash imposed? It varies, and the OS and BASH will impose different limits. So see Sunny's answer. > * If this is a bash limit, is there another shell that isn't so > limited? All shells have arg length limits. > Is my solution: > > differentshell -c pdftk *.pdf cat output output.pdf? No. > * Is there any way to use xargs to break the limit, but not execute the > command multiple times? Or is there a different "helper" for this situation? xargs will try to run only once. > * Is there another limit to be concerned with - as in the size of the > command line? Have you tried to see what your maximum length is by doing something like: ( ls files | xargs echo) | wc -l The output from wc should tell you how many times larger than the command line xargs will create the command line you need is. Two hacks to compact your command line: re-name your files to the minimum number of characters you can (i.e. 4 chars a-z,0-9 should give you 36^4 filenames which is hopefully enough). This is in case your files are 25 chars or so. You could also preserve your original filenames by creating a parallel directory and creating symlinks to the original documents, preventing any possible confusion. The second hack would be to alter pdftk to let you read the list of files to combined operated on from a file. That's really what you want, but from the usage examples I'm not sure if the way it handles files is amenable to that. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 09:17:23 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:17:23 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <45ACDE73.4090905@hirschman.net> Peter C. Norton wrote: > The second > hack would be to alter pdftk to let you read the list of files to combined > operated on from a file. That's really what you want, but from the > usage examples I'm not sure if the way it handles files is amenable to > that. Peter, others, thanks for your ideas, infos and feedback. Simply put, one way or another, I was going to end up running into a situation where there were many, many thousands of files (and hitting both OS and shell limits). Doing a "2 step" concatenation would have worked, as suggested by another listmate, but really would have added a lot of complexity for what should be a fairly simple script. I ended up taking another option - throwing money at it. I purchased a license for a package called PDFMeld - a Linux command-line utility that does what pdftk does, and a lot more. It can also read a list of files, making the shell question moot. If anyone wants more information on it, shoot me some mail offline. Nice to see a vendor supporting Linux, and nice to have the option to just buy a solution. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 09:43:43 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Mariotti) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:43:43 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Webmin - failed to get local socket name??? Message-ID: <45ACE49F.1090005@fdcx.net> I'm setting up a couple of ubuntu 6.06.1 LAMP servers and spoiled that I am I got used to the GUI config capabilities. Because I don't have any desktop GUI installed I installed webmin to provide web-based admin capability. I've been using webmin for a number of years quite successfully and already have it running on one Ubuntu 6.06.1 server box. The problem I'm having now is that on ONE of the boxes I downloaded, untared and installed the latest webmin (1.310) into /opt/webmin-1.310/ and ran the./setup.sh program. Seemed to go OK without any issues. My miniserv.pl daemon is running but when I try to access webmin on this box from a nearby browser on the same subnet I get nothing. The error externally is that the peer closed the connection. On the subject webmin host, its error log shows the above referenced error (failed to get local socket name). I compared to miniserv.conf and webmin.acl files on both this box and the working box and they are virtually the same. I've also scoured sourceforge.net, google, webmin's and ubuntu's forums as well as searched my webmin and ubuntu books, all without finding about this. Do any of you readers KNOW what this error is stating (other than the obvious?) and better yet, how one "might" go about remedying this issue? Thanks all. bobmct From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 10:37:17 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:37:17 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <45ACDE73.4090905@hirschman.net> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> <45ACDE73.4090905@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <20070116153716.GZ18663@lenin.net> On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 09:17:23AM -0500, jh wrote: > If anyone wants more information on it, shoot me some mail offline. Nice > to see a vendor supporting Linux, and nice to have the option to just > buy a solution. Indeed, and nice to see someone willing to pay for something that their business needs when there is a reason to do so :) -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 12:05:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:05:54 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! Message-ID: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> This is the logic I heard from one of the people in the cubicle next to me. Now idiot corprate logic is taking hold of the moronic middle managers who think they are genuises because they can grasp a convoluted article by a microsoftie. If Linux goes away who will microsoft steal from? Steve M From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 12:15:07 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:15:07 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Oracle 10g and Perl Message-ID: <14e60b050701160915i4478bb2k87a48de48449bb75@mail.gmail.com> I have Perl with threading and Oracle 10g, I am trying to install the DBD::Oracle modules but it fails at 99%. 99% is good, but the programmer who is using gets the error message: Can't locate object method "connect" via package "DBI" at tst.pl line 3. I think the programmer is doing something wrong, but DBD::Oracle is not installing, it is failing at 99%. Steve M* * From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 12:17:19 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kiryl Hakhovich) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:17:19 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Oracle 10g and Perl In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701160915i4478bb2k87a48de48449bb75@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701160915i4478bb2k87a48de48449bb75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45AD089F.9030005@bsolution.net> sixtyfourbeets wrote: > I have Perl with threading and Oracle 10g, I am trying to install the > DBD::Oracle modules but it fails at 99%. > 99% is good, but the programmer who is using gets the error message: Can't > locate object method "connect" via package "DBI" at tst.pl line 3. > > I think the programmer is doing something wrong, but DBD::Oracle is not > installing, it is failing at 99%. > > Steve M* > * > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > so the question is...? do we tell you how to teach programmer? or do we tell you how to install the module??? Kiryl From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 12:53:29 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:53:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > This is the logic I heard from one of the people in the cubicle next to me. > Now idiot corprate logic is taking hold of the moronic middle managers who > think they are genuises because they can > grasp a convoluted article by a microsoftie. > > If Linux goes away who will microsoft steal from? > > Steve M I think these claims are not ridiculous. For Microsoft, DRM is a weapon to suppress free software. DRM may not succeed in slowing copyright infringement but, if we permit Microsoft to force its DRM into Dell's computers, then it will be hard to install any free OS on such machines. Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is going into all Dell boxes. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 13:21:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:21:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45AD17AE.2050607@vnetworx.net> Jay Sulzberger wrote: > Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is going into all Dell boxes. Perhaps you should stop picking on Dell so much given they're no longer #1. Besides, I should think the "no one in management is responsible for what goes on here" new king of the heap would be more fun to kick around. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 13:32:38 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:32:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <45AD17AE.2050607@vnetworx.net> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <45AD17AE.2050607@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Ron Guerin wrote: > Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is going into all Dell boxes. > > Perhaps you should stop picking on Dell so much given they're no longer > #1. Besides, I should think the "no one in management is responsible > for what goes on here" new king of the heap would be more fun to kick > around. > > - Ron Who is the "new king of the heap"? oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 13:37:16 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:37:16 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <45AD17AE.2050607@vnetworx.net> Message-ID: <45AD1B5C.4010904@vnetworx.net> Jay Sulzberger wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Ron Guerin wrote: > >> Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> >>> Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is going into all Dell boxes. >> Perhaps you should stop picking on Dell so much given they're no longer >> #1. Besides, I should think the "no one in management is responsible >> for what goes on here" new king of the heap would be more fun to kick >> around. > Who is the "new king of the heap"? I gave one hint. The second is that Dave & Bill are rolling over in their graves. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 13:41:36 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:41:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] RSVP NOW for TOMORROW! NY Linux Users Grp. 1/17 Mtg: Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz on "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" Message-ID: <20070116184136.43114404B@mail.nylug.org> REMINDER: This meeting is tomorrow, RSVP closes at 2:30pm TODAY You can still attend, but have to sign in at the security desk after RSVP closes. Wednesday, January 17th, 2007 6:30pm-8:00pm Google 76 9th Ave., b/w 15th and 16th St. 4th Floor, enter near 16th Street ** RSVP Closes at 2:30pm the day BEFORE meeting (sharp!) *** You must R.S.V.P. for EVERY meeting at this time. Register at http://rsvp.nylug.org/ Check in with photo ID at the lobby for badge. Latecomers can sign in, but it means having to wait. Robert "r0ml" Lefkowitz - on - "Does Linux Make Software Frameworks Obsolete?" Google, 76 9th Ave., 4th Floor, enter near 16th Street. Between 15th and 16th Streets ** Please note important information about this meeting below ** ******* This meeting is being held at Google, not at IBM ******* In a world where software is sold as a black box, it makes sense that the stand-alone frameworks would evolve to allow developers to more easily assemble larger systems by building with those closed frameworks. This leads to software bloat as each application includes numerous general frameworks with large amounts of functionality un-needed by that particular application. More frameworks = more bloat. In a world where all the source code is available, is it not easier and better to start from a "reference implementation" of an application in a particular (or most closely related) domain, and modify to suit? In the Object-Oriented revolution of the late 80's / early 90's this debate was framed as "white-box reuse" vs. "black-box reuse". Now that Linux and Free Software are threatening world domination, how does that change the structure of arguments on both sides? About r0ml r0ml is an software architect and systems designer with over thirty years of experience. For two decades, r0ml worked on Wall Street, developing market data, trading, risk management, and quantitative analysis systems. More recently, as chief technical architect at AT&T Wireless, he drove the improvement of their CRM, ERP, commission, and data warehousing systems. Over the last several years, r0ml has become increasingly interested in open source software strategy at large enterprises, and is a frequent speaker on the topic. Meeting Location Please note that this meeting will be held at Google, 76 9th Ave, 4th floor, between 15th and 16th Streets, and not at IBM. This is the old Port Authority Building, and takes up the entire block. You want the entrance nearest 16th Ave. Map http://tighturl.com/u4 Free Refreshments! Google is also graciously providing refreshments before the meeting begins. For those of us here in the east who aren't used to a "Google spread", you're in for quite a treat. "New Google Cafeteria Crushes Competitors" Cafeterias" (New York Magazine) Books!!! Our friends at Prentice-Hall kindly provide us with review copies of various new titles. One of these could be yours, all you have to do is agree to review the book within a reasonable period of time. Swag (Give Away) During/after the meeting... unusually terrific swag may be given away. Stammtisch After the meeting ... Join us after the meeting around 8:15pm-9pm for drinks and conversation at a location to be determined. Please see our home page at http://www.nylug.org for the HTMLized version of this announcement, our archives, and a lot of other good stuff. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 13:44:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:44:18 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Tomorrow's meeting capacity expanded Message-ID: <45AD1D02.901@madworx.com> Just a quick reminder... meeting is tomorrow, RSVP closes in under an hour, and Google has expanded our meeting capacity for tomorrow to about 150. Everyone who was on the waiting list is now on the RSVP list. If you don't get on the list, you can still go through manual signin procedures with the building and Google to attend, but you really want to be on the list. See you all tomorrow! http://rsvp.nylug.org - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 15:43:22 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:43:22 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Oracle 10g and Perl Message-ID: <14e60b050701161243x6aa62720y251463725c5f7c9d@mail.gmail.com> Did a no test install and my boss is happy with that. Steve M ------------------------------------------------------------------------- so the question is...? do we tell you how to teach programmer? or do we tell you how to install the module??? Kiryl From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 19:41:23 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Micros50) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:41:23 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 12:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > > This is the logic I heard from one of the people in the cubicle next to me. > > Now idiot corprate logic is taking hold of the moronic middle managers who > > think they are genuises because they can > > grasp a convoluted article by a microsoftie. > > > > If Linux goes away who will microsoft steal from? > > > > Steve M > > I think these claims are not ridiculous. For Microsoft, DRM is a > weapon to suppress free software. DRM may not succeed in slowing > copyright infringement but, if we permit Microsoft to force its > DRM into Dell's computers, then it will be hard to install any > free OS on such machines. Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is > going into all Dell boxes. > So you are saying that in the near future ALL Dell computers will be locked down to prevent the installation and use of any OS other than a MS OS ?? Researching this I found several brief articles dating back from 2001 - 2003 speculating that by 2006-2007 hardware may be hard DRM'ed to the point where ONLY trusted MS apps could be run. However, I could not find any recent articles to back this claim. mylar From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 20:23:02 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:23:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: > On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 12:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: >> >>> This is the logic I heard from one of the people in the cubicle next to me. >>> Now idiot corprate logic is taking hold of the moronic middle managers who >>> think they are genuises because they can >>> grasp a convoluted article by a microsoftie. >>> >>> If Linux goes away who will microsoft steal from? >>> >>> Steve M >> >> I think these claims are not ridiculous. For Microsoft, DRM is a >> weapon to suppress free software. DRM may not succeed in slowing >> copyright infringement but, if we permit Microsoft to force its >> DRM into Dell's computers, then it will be hard to install any >> free OS on such machines. Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is >> going into all Dell boxes. >> > > So you are saying that in the near future ALL Dell computers > will be locked down to prevent the installation and use of any > OS other than a MS OS ?? Researching this I found several brief > articles dating back from 2001 - 2003 speculating that by > 2006-2007 hardware may be hard DRM'ed to the point where ONLY > trusted MS apps could be run. However, I could not find any > recent articles to back this claim. > > > mylar Part of Microsoft's strength is that they are always slow. And they are always willing to try again and again. If we do not offer computers on which we can have root, we will lose root on just about every home computer in the world. Year by year more and more computers are more and more Palladiated. As for articles, read Dell's web pages and read the Microsoft EULA for the new Microsoft OS. Dell now puts a TPM in most computers they sell, and Microsoft claims a right to disable your computer whenever they want. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 22:57:49 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:57:49 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 16 January 2007 20:23, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > Dell now puts a TPM in most > computers they sell, and Microsoft claims a right to disable your > computer whenever they want. I'm sure their marketing dept let this one fly .... -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Jan 16 23:06:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:06:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 16 January 2007 20:23, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> Dell now puts a TPM in most >> computers they sell, and Microsoft claims a right to disable your >> computer whenever they want. > > I'm sure their marketing dept let this one fly .... > > -- > Sunny Dubey Sunny, please forgive me: what do you mean? oo--JS. > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 17 00:10:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Micros50) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:10:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: <1169010633.20391.19.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 20:23, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: > > > On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 12:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > >> > >>> This is the logic I heard from one of the people in the cubicle next to me. > >>> Now idiot corprate logic is taking hold of the moronic middle managers who > >>> think they are genuises because they can > >>> grasp a convoluted article by a microsoftie. > >>> > >>> If Linux goes away who will microsoft steal from? > >>> > >>> Steve M > >> > >> I think these claims are not ridiculous. For Microsoft, DRM is a > >> weapon to suppress free software. DRM may not succeed in slowing > >> copyright infringement but, if we permit Microsoft to force its > >> DRM into Dell's computers, then it will be hard to install any > >> free OS on such machines. Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is > >> going into all Dell boxes. > >> > > > > So you are saying that in the near future ALL Dell computers > > will be locked down to prevent the installation and use of any > > OS other than a MS OS ?? Researching this I found several brief > > articles dating back from 2001 - 2003 speculating that by > > 2006-2007 hardware may be hard DRM'ed to the point where ONLY > > trusted MS apps could be run. However, I could not find any > > recent articles to back this claim. > > > > > > mylar > > Part of Microsoft's strength is that they are always slow. And > they are always willing to try again and again. > > If we do not offer computers on which we can have root, we will > lose root on just about every home computer in the world. Year > by year more and more computers are more and more Palladiated. > > As for articles, read Dell's web pages and read the Microsoft > EULA for the new Microsoft OS. Dell now puts a TPM in most > computers they sell, and Microsoft claims a right to disable your > computer whenever they want. > Ok, fair enough. I'll check it out. mylar From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 17 01:14:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 01:14:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <1169010633.20391.19.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <1168994483.20391.9.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> <1169010633.20391.19.camel@manhattan.ruffe.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: > On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 20:23, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, Micros50 wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 12:53, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, sixtyfourbeets wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is the logic I heard from one of the people in the cubicle next to me. >>>>> Now idiot corprate logic is taking hold of the moronic middle managers who >>>>> think they are genuises because they can >>>>> grasp a convoluted article by a microsoftie. >>>>> >>>>> If Linux goes away who will microsoft steal from? >>>>> >>>>> Steve M >>>> >>>> I think these claims are not ridiculous. For Microsoft, DRM is a >>>> weapon to suppress free software. DRM may not succeed in slowing >>>> copyright infringement but, if we permit Microsoft to force its >>>> DRM into Dell's computers, then it will be hard to install any >>>> free OS on such machines. Unless we act now, Microsoft DRM is >>>> going into all Dell boxes. >>>> >>> >>> So you are saying that in the near future ALL Dell computers >>> will be locked down to prevent the installation and use of any >>> OS other than a MS OS ?? Researching this I found several brief >>> articles dating back from 2001 - 2003 speculating that by >>> 2006-2007 hardware may be hard DRM'ed to the point where ONLY >>> trusted MS apps could be run. However, I could not find any >>> recent articles to back this claim. >>> >>> >>> mylar >> >> Part of Microsoft's strength is that they are always slow. And >> they are always willing to try again and again. >> >> If we do not offer computers on which we can have root, we will >> lose root on just about every home computer in the world. Year >> by year more and more computers are more and more Palladiated. >> >> As for articles, read Dell's web pages and read the Microsoft >> EULA for the new Microsoft OS. Dell now puts a TPM in most >> computers they sell, and Microsoft claims a right to disable your >> computer whenever they want. >> > > Ok, fair enough. I'll check it out. > > mylar Thanks, mylar! oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 17 09:23:49 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:23:49 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux commercialware, was: Re: Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <20070116153716.GZ18663@lenin.net> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> <45ACDE73.4090905@hirschman.net> <20070116153716.GZ18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <45AE3175.5040803@hirschman.net> Peter C. Norton wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 09:17:23AM -0500, jh wrote: >> If anyone wants more information on it, shoot me some mail offline. Nice >> to see a vendor supporting Linux, and nice to have the option to just >> buy a solution. > > Indeed, and nice to see someone willing to pay for something that > their business needs when there is a reason to do so :) > > -Peter > Sadly, it is the same old story of the Linux version being the "poor sister" to the Windows version. No API at all; the Windows version is available as a library in three different flavors, plus command line. Of course, the Linux version is priced the same, despite being a bit less useful. I would have certainly paid double, perhaps triple, to get a ready-to-go Python module. When I mentioned/asked about this, I was told that I could buy a limited license to the source code for $15,000 and roll my own. The command line version sans API costs $600 per CPU with a year of support. No thanks :) This brings up a different, but related issue: my company offered to sponsor some new feature development for a very well known graphics-related/Python related project - one that has a company behind it, set up for just that purpose (plus support contracts). Not a special build for us, but to be incorporated in the GPL'd main dev tree. I've yet to get a firm response, mostly because the folks running the project are just flakey, it seems (weeks between responses from them, etc). Although there are folks like myself that will pay for software when needed, it seems that the "ecosystem" just isn't there. I long for the day when I can buy components just like I would for Visual Basic or .NET. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 17 14:53:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Gary Mort) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:53:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux commercialware, was: Re: Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <45AE3175.5040803@hirschman.net> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> <45ACDE73.4090905@hirschman.net> <20070116153716.GZ18663@lenin.net> <45AE3175.5040803@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <45AE7ED0.6040309@saplings.us> jh wrote: > This brings up a different, but related issue: my company offered to > sponsor some new feature development for a very well known > graphics-related/Python related project - one that has a company behind > it, set up for just that purpose (plus support contracts). Not a special > build for us, but to be incorporated in the GPL'd main dev tree. I've > yet to get a firm response, mostly because the folks running the project > are just flakey, it seems (weeks between responses from them, etc). > > Although there are folks like myself that will pay for software when > needed, it seems that the "ecosystem" just isn't there. I long for the > day when I can buy components just like I would for Visual Basic or .NET. > > I've seen projects where the bounty system works well. I've also seen projects where the developer is opposed to anyone making money off of his project, doesn't consider the amounts offered worth his while, and actively opposes anyone paying someone to develop add ons for his system based on the fact that he doesn't like the method in which the person proposes to pay. I think a centralized tracker for bounties that doesn't depend on the developer managing it could work well. But than you run into the problem that it costs money to run such a system, and therefore there will be some way to recoup that cost - be it advertising or a percentage of the money flowing through the system. And open source developers who are working as a hobby or a pet project will object to someone making money on THEIR project. As a side note, what graphics program are you working on? There may already be some sort of api or functionality for it(as an example, I know my brother has done some fiddling with Poser's python interface to automate some functions. I honestly don't understand it, I'm not a graphics person) And finally, to bring the topic back to this particular project. I also emailed them, 600 actually seemed reasonable to me for the time savings of their product versus figuring out how to roll your own. I don't expect to ever be in a project where it will be chosen over having someone working at 10$ an hour or so code their own solution - but alternatively I've had people who told me I wanted 10 times as much to do whatever project they wanted(some ffmpeg installing and integration for converting videos) come back to me a few weeks later asking if I was still interested because the cheap developer they got is working too slowly - unfortunately for him my time is now full for the next 2 weeks so no dice) - the point here being that after 3 or 4 of these fiasco's, 600 for an all in one product may be good. Also note if you only want a limited set of functions, they are willing to give you a custom price for just those functions. So they do seem to be flexible. My only complaint with them is that they don't publish their linux prices online. From jays surelynot panix.com Wed Jan 17 14:57:06 2007 From: jays surelynot panix.com (jays surelynot panix.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:57:06 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Thursday 18 January 2007 UNIGROUP: Tom Limoncelli on Site Reliability at Google Message-ID: <200701171957.l0HJv6215755@panix3.panix.com> Reply-To: secretary at lxny.org Subject: Thursday 18 January 2007 UNIGROUP: Tom Limoncelli on Site Reliability at Google
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:40:28 -0500 (EST) From: Unigroup_of_NY Subject: Reminder: UNIGROUP Meeting 18-JAN-2007 (Thu): Site Reliability at Google Reminder, Unigroup is THIS Thursday... ==================================================================== UNIGROUP OF NEW YORK - UNIX USERS GROUP - JANUARY 2007 ANNOUNCEMENTS ==================================================================== ---------------------------------------------------- 1. UNIGROUP'S JANUARY 2007 GENERAL MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT ---------------------------------------------------- When: THURSDAY, January 18th, 2007 (3rd Thursday) Where: Alliance for Downtown NY Conference Facility Downtown Center 104 Washington Street South West Corner of Wall Street Area Downtown, New York City ** Please RSVP (not mandatory) ** Time: 6:15 PM - 6:25 PM Registration 6:25 PM - 6:45 PM Ask the Wizard, Questions, Answers and Current Events 6:45 PM - 7:00 PM Unigroup Business and Announcements 7:00 PM - 9:30 PM Main Presentation -------------------------- Topic: Site Reliability at Google -------------------------- Speaker: Tom Limoncelli, Google INTRODUCTION: ------------- Unigroup is pleased welcome back Tom Limoncelli for our first meeting of 2007. Tom will be presenting his LISA'06 talk about his experiences working on Google's computing environment. This is the first time Tom is giving this talk in New York. Unigroup Board of Director Elections will also take place at our January meeting. All interested Unigroup members interested in joining the board should contact us immediately. ------------------------------------------------------------------- SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS: --------------------- To REGISTER for this event, please RSVP by using the Unigroup Registration Page: http://www.unigroup.org/unigroup-rsvp.html This will allow us to automate the registration process. (Registration will also add you to our mailing list.) Please avoid emailed RSVPs. Please continue to check the Unigroup web site and meeting page, for any last minute updates concerning this meeting. If you registered for this meeting, please check your email for any last minute announcements as the meeting approaches. Also make sure any anti-spam white-lists are updated to _ALLOW_ Unigroup traffic! If you block Unigroup Emails, your address will be dropped from our mailing list. Please try to RSVP as soon as possible. Note: RSVP is not mandatory for this location, but it does help us to properly plan the meeting (food, drinks, handouts, seating, etc.). ------------------------------------------------------------------- MAIN PRESENTATION OUTLINE: -------------------------- Tom will speak about what it's like to be on the team that runs www.google.com's services and explore some of the technologies that enable Google's Web services to maintain their high uptime. Google's "service oriented network" (SON) enables the creation of new products that are scalable and maintainable. Tom will give a SysAdmin's view of Google technologies such as GFS, MapReduce, Sawmill, and more. He will also describe how to make a policy that is "Googley." Web Resources: -------------- Tom's first book "The Practice of System and Network Administration", and his blog: http://www.EverythingSysadmin.com Google and Google Papers: http://www.google.com/intl/en/about.html http://labs.google.com/papers.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Speaker Biography: ------------------ Tom is the author of O'Reilly's Time Management for System Administrators and co-author of The Practice of System and Network Administration from Addison-Wesley. He joined Google in January 2006. A sysadmin and network wonk since 1987, he has worked at Cibernet, Dean for America, Lumeta, Bell Labs/Lucent, Mentor Graphics, and Drew University. He is a frequent presenter at LISA conferences and joint recipient of USENIX and SAGE's 2005 Outstanding Achievement Award. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Giveaways: ---------- O'Reilly has been kind enough to provide us with some of their books, which we will continue to raffle off as giveaways at our meetings. Addison-Wesley Professional/Prentice Hall PTR has been kind enough to provide us with some of their books, which we will continue to raffle off as giveaways at our meetings. Unigroup would like to thank both companies for the support provided by their User Group programs. Note: The chances tend to be about 1 in 5, that any attendee of our meeting will walk away with a fairly valuable giveaway (ie. most books are valued between $30 and $60)! We also expect to have "Google Stuff" to raffle off as well! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Fee Schedule: Yearly Membership (includes all meetings): $ 50.00 Non-Member Single Meeting: $ 20.00 Student Yearly Membership: $ 20.00 Non-Member Student Single Meeting (with ID): $ 5.00 Payment Methods: Cash, Check, American Express. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Complimentary Food and Refreshments will be served. This includes "wraps" such as turkey, roast beef, chicken, tuna and grilled vegetables as well as assorted salads (potato, tossed, pasta, etc), cookies, bottled water and assorted beverages. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Directions: Alliance for Downtown NY Conference Facility Downtown Center 104 Washington Street Wall Street Area Downtown, New York City This building is located on the West side of the street, the second building north of Rector Street. Cross Streets: Between Rector (South) and Carlisle (North) Streets. Our meeting location is in the Lower West Corner of Downtown, North of the Battery Tunnel, South of the Downtown Hotel, East of West Street, and West of Greenwich Street. Walking West on Rector Street from Broadway, you pass Church, Greenwich then Washington Streets. There are multiple blocks of parking lots right there, between Washington and Greenwich Streets, starting at the Battery Tunnel and extending North for a number of blocks. Nearest mass transit stations, in order, are the '1/9' (Rector Street), 'R/W' (Rector Street) and the '4/5' (Wall Street). ----- Please mark this meeting on your calendar and join us! Please tell your friends about Unigroup! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- 2. UPCOMING MEETINGS ----------------- We have a series of meetings in the works: - TCL - Asterix / VoIP - NO SPAM! (know any speakers on SPF and DNSrbl?) - LAMP Part 2 - PHP - Field Trip to HP - Invited - Are there too many Linux Distributions? - Unix 35th Birthday Celebration (Sun has offered to host this!) - IPsec and IPv6 - Samba - DNS - Unix Clusters and Clustered Databases - Linux Clustering Part 3: Beowulf version 2 - Building a Firewall using FreeBSD and Linux - High Performance Internet Servers / Web Acceleration - Unix Office Tools: Word Processors, Spreadsheets, Accounting Packages. - PKI - GNU Development Environments - iSCSI, Serial ATA, and other new peripheral technologies Please let us know about any other meeting topics that you may be interested in. Potential speakers on Unix related technology topics should contact the Unigroup Board. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- 3. PRIOR MEETINGS -------------- Oct 2006: Steven M. Bellovin on Internet Security: TCP/IP Security Retrospective Nov 2006: Sun Microsystems on Solaris 10 ** Formal Thank You's to our previous speakers will appear in an upcoming announcement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- 4. UNIGROUP INFORMATION -------------------- Unigroup is one of the oldest and largest Unix User's Groups serving the Greater New York City Regional Area since the early 1980s. Unigroup is a not-for-profit, vendor-neutral and member funded volunteer organization. Unigroup holds regular and special event meetings throughout the year on technical topics relating to Unix and the Unix User Community. Unigroup is/was also the Greater NYC Regional Area Affiliate of UniForum - an International Unix Users Group. Unigroup holds regular meetings planned for (at a minimum) the Third THURSDAY of Odd Months. We generally try to hold Field Trip or Vendor Specific Meetings on the Even Months, although we do have the ability to hold monthly meetings at our new downtown meeting location. Planned regular meeting dates are: 1/18/2007, 3/15/2007, 5/17/2007... Watch for our Special Event meetings at the various trade shows in NYC as well as "Field Trips" to the facilities of local hardware and software vendors. ========================================================================= = For Unigroup Information, Events and Meeting Announcements be sure to = = visit our World Wide Web Home Page: = = http://www.unigroup.org = ========================================================================= For further information or to get on the Unigroup Electronic Mail Mailing List send an EMail message to: unilist (-a_t-) unigroup.org To contact the Board of Directors of Unigroup, send an EMail message to: uniboard (-a_t-) unigroup.org If you have recently attended a meeting and you are not receiving Email announcements, please send us an Email and we will make corrections to our lists. Please Email the Board with any suggestions, especially potential meeting topics and speakers. Unigroup welcomes contributions and content suggestions for our newsletter. Unigroup is a volunteer organization and we need your assistance! Please let us know if you can help! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope to see you all at our next meeting! -Rob Weiner Unigroup Executive Director unilist (-a_t-) unigroup.org http://www.unigroup.org
Distributed poC TINC: Jay Sulzberger Corresponding Secretary LXNY LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization. http://www.lxny.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 17 15:51:47 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:51:47 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux commercialware, was: Re: Xarrrgh: Overcoming shell/bash wildcard expansion limits? Other limits? In-Reply-To: <45AE7ED0.6040309@saplings.us> References: <45ABA52F.8040902@hirschman.net> <20070116134345.GY18663@lenin.net> <45ACDE73.4090905@hirschman.net> <20070116153716.GZ18663@lenin.net> <45AE3175.5040803@hirschman.net> <45AE7ED0.6040309@saplings.us> Message-ID: <45AE8C63.8030409@hirschman.net> Gary Mort wrote: > jh wrote: >> This brings up a different, but related issue: my company offered to >> sponsor some new feature development for a very well known >> graphics-related/Python related project - one that has a company behind >> it, set up for just that purpose (plus support contracts). Not a special >> build for us, but to be incorporated in the GPL'd main dev tree. I've >> yet to get a firm response, mostly because the folks running the project >> are just flakey, it seems (weeks between responses from them, etc). > As a side note, what graphics program are you working on? Actually, we wanted to pay the main devs for the Python Imaging Library to add some (very common, and likely, very useful to many) graphic format capability. It was on their to-do list anyway, it comes up constantly on their mailing lists, so they were totally into it. And then we got into their foolishness; this was after mentioning that we had budget that evaporated with the end of the year. So, too late now :( Perhaps we'll revisit in Q407. Having them do it was attractive as we could attach a support contract to it for bug-stomping. I'm all for giving back to the community, but business is business. If they cannot get their act together to take my money, they probably can't really support anyone, either. Shame, really. > And finally, to bring the topic back to this particular project. I also > emailed them, 600 actually seemed reasonable to me for the time savings > of their product versus figuring out how to roll your own. No issue with the cost at all. It was totally worth it, we've incorporated PDFMeld into one of our production scripts, and everything is just great. It was either that or rewriting pdftk, which would have certainly cost more in soft dollars, and come with no support. > Also note if you only want a limited set of functions, they are willing > to give you a custom price for just those functions. So they do seem to > be flexible. My overall point is that it is just silly that Linux software like PDFMeld either doesn't come with bindings for some common languages, or at least be in a state where I could use swig and do it myself. Seems to be a chicken and egg situation; not enough Linux users are buying this kind of stuff in the first place, I suppose, so it isn't going to happen in a good and affordable fashion. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 14:26:44 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Judd Maltin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:26:44 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux Message-ID: http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/workstation.html Pretty easy to buy one here, no? From wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net Thu Jan 18 16:01:24 2007 From: wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net (wdg3rd surelynot comcast.net) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:01:24 +0000 Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux Message-ID: <011820072101.14727.45AFE024000826510000398722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: "Judd Maltin" > http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/workstation.html > > Pretty easy to buy one here, no? The footnote at the bottom: || * Only Novell Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 is supported. The ThinkPad T60p Mobile Workstation does not come preloaded with SUSE Linux. Users must obtain SUSE Linux licenses from Novell. The ThinkPad T60p comes with DOS entitlement only and ships with a blank hard disk drive. SUSE Linux OS will be supported by Novell, while Lenovo will support Hardware, ThinkVantage Technologies, and drivers. || So these machines don't come with Linux preinstalled. You have to acquire Linux separately. And unless it's the version from the company that crawled into bed with Redmond, no support. Note that there is no place on _that_ page to purchase a system. Every configuration you can order from elsewhere in those servers comes with Windows. (You get a choice between XP Pro (default, recommended, preselected) or XP Home. I can not find any place on those servers to actually order one of these devices with a bare hard drive. This is little different from any other major vendor. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader. Joseph Sobran > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 16:03:41 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Drew Davis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:03:41 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1169154221.15692.13.camel@localhost> I went through the motions of trying to figure out how much it costs with and without Windows, and while I see instructions of how to install SUSE Linux 10 onto it, I don't see any way to order it without Windows. Any I overlooking something on the site? Drew On Thu, 2007-01-18 at 14:26 -0500, Judd Maltin wrote: > http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/workstation.html > > Pretty easy to buy one here, no? From jays surelynot panix.com Thu Jan 18 20:58:55 2007 From: jays surelynot panix.com (jays surelynot panix.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:58:55 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Friday 19 January 2007 NYU Free Culture Club: Cory Doctorow on the Battle for Freedom of the Net Message-ID: <200701190158.l0J1wtt00102@panix3.panix.com>
January 19th 2007 @ 5pm : Cory Doctorow January 3, 2007 by Fred photo by Bart Nagel On January 19th at 5pm Free Culture @ NYU and NYU ACM are hosting a talk by Cory Doctorow. The event will be at the Courant Institute in Room 109 at 5pm-7pm. Cory will be speaking on "State of the Copyfight 2007: Looking up, not out of the woods yet". Cory co-edits the massively popular blog BoingBoing.net, writes sci-fi novels that are released under Creative Commons licenses, and is a dedicated copyfighter who serves on the board of numerous organizations. Read his bio here or his Wikipedia entry. The event will be free and open to the public. This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007 at 4:12 pm and is filed under Events, News, Meetings. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Distributed poC TINC: Jay Sulzberger Corresponding Secretary LXNY LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization. http://www.lxny.org From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 21:43:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:43:10 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux In-Reply-To: <011820072101.14727.45AFE024000826510000398722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <011820072101.14727.45AFE024000826510000398722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200701182143.10228.sunny@opencurve.org> On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:01, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > I can not find any place on those servers to actually order one of these > devices with a bare hard drive. quoteth the website: Available Linux compatible models (to order, call 866-96-THINK): 2007-8ZU with 14" SXGA+ -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 22:37:23 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:37:23 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 16 January 2007 23:06, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > I'm sure their marketing dept let this one fly .... > > Sunny, please forgive me: what do you mean? I'd like to lend you my Marketing 101 book. You should read at least the first 10 chapters. And then you'll realize, Microsoft will just nag you to death for using a copied version of windows ... but they'll never "turn off" your PC via hardware. The former already happens and will never make it to the papers, the latter would hit front page of the New York Times. (Speaking of which, the TImes has had some pretty impressive and very well written articles on why DRM is bad, why being locked into Apple's Itunes DRM is bad, and even yesterday's paper had an article in the biz section about the new HD-DVD/Blue-ray DRM being broken. Great material/reporting.) -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 22:08:39 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:08:39 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20070119030839.GA32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 10:37:23PM -0500, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 16 January 2007 23:06, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > I'm sure their marketing dept let this one fly .... > > > > Sunny, please forgive me: what do you mean? > > I'd like to lend you my Marketing 101 book. You should read at least the > first 10 chapters. Does it mention Vioxx? I thought you were an IT major? Ruben > > And then you'll realize, Microsoft will just nag you to death for using a > copied version of windows ... but they'll never "turn off" your PC via > hardware. The former already happens and will never make it to the papers, > the latter would hit front page of the New York Times. > > (Speaking of which, the TImes has had some pretty impressive and very well > written articles on why DRM is bad, why being locked into Apple's Itunes DRM > is bad, and even yesterday's paper had an article in the biz section about > the new HD-DVD/Blue-ray DRM being broken. Great material/reporting.) > > -- > Sunny Dubey > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 22:11:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:11:10 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> > > And then you'll realize, Microsoft will just nag you to death for using a > copied version of windows ... but they'll never "turn off" your PC via > hardware. The former already happens and will never make it to the papers, > the latter would hit front page of the New York Times. > Umm No your wrong. Do you have any idea the changs in the 'market' for products over the last 40 years. For one thing, you could record freely 40 years ago and even bootleg concerts all legally. Ruben -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 23:01:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ah Pook) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:01:12 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B=09Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <200701182301.13469.ahpook@verizon.net> On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:11 pm, Ruben Safir wrote: > Do you have any idea the changs in the 'market' for products over the > last 40 years. For one thing, you could record freely 40 years ago > and even bootleg concerts all legally. Not in America. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 23:23:05 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:23:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux In-Reply-To: <200701182143.10228.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <011820072101.14727.45AFE024000826510000398722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <200701182143.10228.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:01, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: >> I can not find any place on those servers to actually order one of these >> devices with a bare hard drive. > > quoteth the website: > > Available Linux compatible models (to order, call 866-96-THINK): > 2007-8ZU with 14" SXGA+ > > -- > Sunny Dubey Sunny, please do a price comparison between the hardware with Microsoft trojan substrate installed, and without. I think that the hardware with no Microsoft OS on it will cost more. We have given good evidence that from Dell you just about always pay more to get the hardware with no Microsoft OS on it. I say "just about" in case there is some method that, by counting your time as worthless, results in a few dollars saved on the no Microsoft version. So far no one on this list has told us how to do this with Dell, nor with Lenovo. Dell and Lenovo, in cooperation with Microsoft, just about always pay you to run a Microsoft OS. As for HP: I briefly looked at their web site yesterday. I saw no good deals for those who want a box without any Microsoft OS. But at http://www.powernotebooks.com it looks as though you get a sqaure deal: http://www.powernotebooks.com/configure.php?special=419 The hardware is priced separately from the OS. Dell, Lenovo, and HP do not want to sell any hardware without a Microsoft OS. Power Notebooks is willing to. oo--JS. > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 23:21:34 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:21:34 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> On Thursday 18 January 2007 22:11, Ruben Safir wrote: > No your wrong. ? > No, I'm right. Windows XP has this annoying "Your Windows May Not Be Genuine" message with a pretty little blue star that pops up all the time when you are using a bootlegged version of XP. Vista, when not activated, locks people out of running Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player ... which is f*cking great for OSS apps like Firefox, and VLC. Microsoft's Vista is practically giving their users to us. Do your research. > Do you have any idea the changs in the 'market' for products over the last > 40 years. ?For one thing, you could record freely 40 years ago and even > bootleg concerts all legally. Stop confusing two things. There is a difference between status quo copyright-regime absurdity and the actions of a particular company. Lets not even begin to discuss the amount of resources required in micro-managing hundreds of millions of licenses, in which even a 5% false-positive rate is simply too much. Could you imagine Microsoft using DRM to shutdown 5 million PC's based on 100 million licenses at the 5% false-positive rate ??? Yeah, lets hope no DoJ or NYTimes/Chicago Tribune/CNN machines get turned off in the process. Get real. -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 23:30:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:30:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701162257.50163.sunny@opencurve.org> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 16 January 2007 23:06, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >>> I'm sure their marketing dept let this one fly .... >> >> Sunny, please forgive me: what do you mean? > > I'd like to lend you my Marketing 101 book. You should read at > least the first 10 chapters. Delighted, thank you! Two of my favorites are "How to Write Advertising Copy that Sells", and "The 100 Greatest Advertisements". > > And then you'll realize, Microsoft will just nag you to death > for using a copied version of windows ... but they'll never > "turn off" your PC via hardware. The former already happens > and will never make it to the papers, the latter would hit > front page of the New York Times. Of course you are wrong here. The BSA has done more than just disable a few Microsoft OS boxes. > > (Speaking of which, the TImes has had some pretty impressive > and very well written articles on why DRM is bad, why being > locked into Apple's Itunes DRM is bad, and even yesterday's > paper had an article in the biz section about the new > HD-DVD/Blue-ray DRM being broken. Great material/reporting.) > > -- > Sunny Dubey The issue is not some small matter of convenience or inconvenience in playing a popular song or movie on your home computer. The issue is "Who has root?". oo--JS. > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 23:40:51 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:40:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 18 January 2007 22:11, Ruben Safir wrote: >> No your wrong. ? >> > > No, I'm right. Windows XP has this annoying "Your Windows May Not Be Genuine" > message with a pretty little blue star that pops up all the time when you are > using a bootlegged version of XP. Vista, when not activated, locks people > out of running Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player ... which is > f*cking great for OSS apps like Firefox, and VLC. > > Microsoft's Vista is practically giving their users to us. Such inconveniences will not drive users to any free OS. How could they, since every single low priced box is sold with a Microsoft OS already installed. ad Firefox and VLC: the day Bill Gates wants them not to run on top of his OS is the day they stop running. > > Do your research. Your argument, if good, would also show that Microsoft OSes are not run by most home computer users. People run a Microsoft OS because it came installed on the hardware at point of sale. Not because the Microsoft OS was chosen by the home user. > >> Do you have any idea the changs in the 'market' for products >> over the last 40 years. ?For one thing, you could record >> freely 40 years ago and even bootleg concerts all legally. > > Stop confusing two things. There is a difference between > status quo copyright-regime absurdity and the actions of a > particular company. Lets not even begin to discuss the amount > of resources required in micro-managing hundreds of millions of > licenses, in which even a 5% false-positive rate is simply too > much. Could you imagine Microsoft using DRM to shutdown 5 > million PC's based on 100 million licenses at the 5% > false-positive rate ??? Yeah, lets hope no DoJ or > NYTimes/Chicago Tribune/CNN machines get turned off in the > process. Today the DOJ and the New York Times have suffered millions of lost hours of work due to worms, viruses, Trojans, difficulties of use, etc., all due to their running various Microsoft OSes. Your argument would show that years ago they all quit running any Microsoft OS. Yet they still run the various Microsoft OSes. > > Get real. > > -- > Sunny Dubey Please consider your argument, and whether it might do with some amendment. oo--JS. > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Thu Jan 18 23:48:18 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:48:18 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?utf-8?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years=3B_Tru?= =?utf-8?q?st=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200701182348.18235.sunny@opencurve.org> On Thursday 18 January 2007 23:40, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > Please consider your argument, and whether it might do with some > amendment. I absolutely refuse and outright reject the notion of engaging in a tit-for-tat argument with the likes of you two. I learned my lesson ages ago. But believe me, I've given this subject a lot of thought, especially when I do plan to buy another laptop this year to replace my aging IBM X30. -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From alex surelynot pilosoft.com Thu Jan 18 23:53:47 2007 From: alex surelynot pilosoft.com (alex surelynot pilosoft.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:53:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > I think that the hardware with no Microsoft OS on it will cost more. > We have given good evidence that from Dell you just about always pay > more to get the hardware with no Microsoft OS on it. I say "just about" > in case there is some method that, by counting your time as worthless, > results in a few dollars saved on the no Microsoft version. So far no > one on this list has told us how to do this with Dell, nor with Lenovo. > Dell and Lenovo, in cooperation with Microsoft, just about always pay > you to run a Microsoft OS. I'm getting very angry. It has been shown to you that Dell desktops are 30$ less without Windows. You keep repeating the reverse. Enjoy your spot next to Ruben in the killfile. -alex From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 01:26:38 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Mark Halegua) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:26:38 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?utf-8?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years=3B_Tru?= =?utf-8?q?st=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200701190126.38874.phantom21@mindspring.com> On Thursday 18 January 2007 23:40, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > On Thursday 18 January 2007 22:11, Ruben Safir wrote: > >> No your wrong. ? > > > > No, I'm right. Windows XP has this annoying "Your Windows May Not Be > > Genuine" message with a pretty little blue star that pops up all the time > > when you are using a bootlegged version of XP. Vista, when not > > activated, locks people out of running Internet Explorer and Windows > > Media Player ... which is f*cking great for OSS apps like Firefox, and > > VLC. > > > > Microsoft's Vista is practically giving their users to us. > > Such inconveniences will not drive users to any free OS. How > could they, since every single low priced box is sold with a > Microsoft OS already installed. > > ad Firefox and VLC: the day Bill Gates wants them not to run on > top of his OS is the day they stop running. > > > Do your research. > > Your argument, if good, would also show that Microsoft OSes are > not run by most home computer users. People run a Microsoft OS > because it came installed on the hardware at point of sale. Not > because the Microsoft OS was chosen by the home user. > > >> Do you have any idea the changs in the 'market' for products > >> over the last 40 years. ?For one thing, you could record > >> freely 40 years ago and even bootleg concerts all legally. > > > > Stop confusing two things. There is a difference between > > status quo copyright-regime absurdity and the actions of a > > particular company. Lets not even begin to discuss the amount > > of resources required in micro-managing hundreds of millions of > > licenses, in which even a 5% false-positive rate is simply too > > much. Could you imagine Microsoft using DRM to shutdown 5 > > million PC's based on 100 million licenses at the 5% > > false-positive rate ??? Yeah, lets hope no DoJ or > > NYTimes/Chicago Tribune/CNN machines get turned off in the > > process. > > Today the DOJ and the New York Times have suffered millions of > lost hours of work due to worms, viruses, Trojans, difficulties > of use, etc., all due to their running various Microsoft OSes. > Your argument would show that years ago they all quit running any > Microsoft OS. Yet they still run the various Microsoft OSes. The following is from the NY Times website at: http://firstlook.nytimes.com/index.php?cat=4 Be among the first to experience Times Reader, a new application which enhances the onscreen reading experience. Times Reader Features: Embrace the easy-to-read format Times Reader uses the same font and column structure you see in the printed paper. Also, there is no scrolling necessary -- just use the arrow keys on your keyboard to turn the page. Read it offline In just about one minute you can sync up Times Reader to the Web site to retrieve the latest news and photos. Don't miss a thing "What's Read" allows you to quickly see how much of the paper you've read and lets you easily navigate to unread articles. Browse the "News in Pictures" View a slide show with all of today's photos and click on a specific photo to read the related article. Make it your own Use tools to save, print and e-mail documents. You can also highlight and annotate passages within the text of articles. Read it anywhere TimesReader automatically adjusts to fit any screen size, from an ultra mobile computing device to a ten-foot display. Now, here are the requirements to be able to use the new way to read the NY Times: Hardware requirements: Windows XP SP2 or Windows Vista 1Ghz processor Minimum: 384 MB RAM Recommended: 500 MB RAM Yeah, the NY Times are really OS agnostic. Mark From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 01:38:37 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:38:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] =?utf-8?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years=3B_Tru?= =?utf-8?q?st=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <200701182348.18235.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> <200701182348.18235.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 18 January 2007 23:40, Jay Sulzberger wrote: >> Please consider your argument, and whether it might do with some >> amendment. > > I absolutely refuse and outright reject the notion of engaging in a > tit-for-tat argument with the likes of you two. I learned my lesson ages > ago. > > But believe me, I've given this subject a lot of thought, especially when I do > plan to buy another laptop this year to replace my aging IBM X30. > > -- > Sunny Dubey In that case, let us know when you get a laptop from Lenovo which 1. does not come with a Microsoft OS installed 2. cost you less than the same hardware with a Microsoft OS installed I shall be delighted to hear of your success. oo--JS. > > mail: sunny at opencurve.org > tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 01:40:44 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:40:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] Lenovo IBM Thinkpad Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > >> I think that the hardware with no Microsoft OS on it will cost more. >> We have given good evidence that from Dell you just about always pay >> more to get the hardware with no Microsoft OS on it. I say "just about" >> in case there is some method that, by counting your time as worthless, >> results in a few dollars saved on the no Microsoft version. So far no >> one on this list has told us how to do this with Dell, nor with Lenovo. >> Dell and Lenovo, in cooperation with Microsoft, just about always pay >> you to run a Microsoft OS. > I'm getting very angry. It has been shown to you that Dell desktops are > 30$ less without Windows. You keep repeating the reverse. > > Enjoy your spot next to Ruben in the killfile. > > -alex Alex, when you get the hardware with a Microsoft OS installed, you also get free shipping and a free flat panel display. If you bought twenty of these boxes, and you did not get free shipping and twenty flat panel displays, I'd ask for them now. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 03:07:20 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Kevin Mark) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:07:20 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust?Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <200701190126.38874.phantom21@mindspring.com> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> <200701190126.38874.phantom21@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20070119080719.GN21684@localhost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 01:26:38AM -0500, Mark Halegua wrote: > Times Reader Features: > Embrace the easy-to-read format 'easy' for who? > > Now, here are the requirements to be able to use the new way to read the NY > Times: > > Hardware requirements: > Windows XP SP2 or Windows Vista > 1Ghz processor > Minimum: 384 MB RAM > Recommended: 500 MB RAM > > Yeah, the NY Times are really OS agnostic. As long as you have a windows user agent profile, you can download the EXE. unfortunatley, wine could not do anything useful with it. Cheers, Kev - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | 'under construction' | | `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and | | `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFsHw3v8UcC1qRZVMRAjUwAJ0eoxh4+hXb+xiYF8d+AXLB82hmUgCfb4iz 2Y0/hZN7wDxlWXPpTZyxDoQ= =et/g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 07:06:26 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:06:26 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20070119120626.GA3139@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 11:21:34PM -0500, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 18 January 2007 22:11, Ruben Safir wrote: > > No your wrong. ? > > > > No, I'm right. Windows XP has this annoying "Your Windows May Not Be Genuine" No As usual your wrong. > message with a pretty little blue star that pops up all the time when you are > using a bootlegged version of XP. Vista, when not activated, locks people > out of running Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player ... which is > f*cking great for OSS apps like Firefox, and VLC. > Their not stupid. They need to get gullable drones to accept their freeware drm infested junk first and they have all the time in the world to force it on you piecemeal. And there are cases already where they turn off the software, in fact for DECADES. Your ever run two Novel OS's on the same network with the same license keys. Let me tell you that is fun. And your fundementally wrong about the marketing. Products across the entire spectrum have been increasingly restrictive in their usages since the early 1960's. Do you have ANY CLUE about how shocking it was when you first couldn't get upgrades on software after a year because it was replaced by new software at full costs and demaned you to buy new machines to make them work? Are you aware of the increasing limitation on the VHS over the years? Your just so ignorant sometimes that you should learn to stop flapping your mouth and listen every once in a while. Your talking rights should be revoked until you get your head out of the Borg Hive. Meanwhile, consider this in your marketing text, much of its driving theory didn't even exist when the MPAA laid out its plans to end the VHS tape which it has finally succeeded in finishing. They started at the end of the Carter Administration, and they finally killed it off this past year. http://www.mrbrklyn.com/resources/death_of_vhs.html These people don't play on the same plain of existense that you live it. Don't bother sending a repsonse back. You've now reached the point where your in my killfile along with Alex. Ruben -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 08:11:40 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 05:11:40 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <20070119120626.GA3139@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <200701182237.23778.sunny@opencurve.org> <20070119031110.GB32583@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <200701182321.34905.sunny@opencurve.org> <20070119120626.GA3139@www2.mrbrklyn.com> Message-ID: <20070119131140.GJ18663@lenin.net> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:06:26AM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote: > Your just so ignorant sometimes that you should learn to stop flapping your > mouth and listen every once in a while. > > Your talking rights should be revoked until you get your head out of the Borg > Hive. Meanwhile, consider this in your marketing text, much of its > driving theory didn't even exist when the MPAA laid out its plans to end the > VHS tape which it has finally succeeded in finishing. They started at the > end of the Carter Administration, and they finally killed it off this past > year. Let's end this thread. It's becoming a venting of long-standing personal issues. In other words it's gotten stupid. Yes, that means I'm willing to muzzle anyone who continues attacking so please don't. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 09:24:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Nathan Eckenrode) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:24:01 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux_will_be_obsolete_in_two_years?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3B_Trust=09Computing_is_the_way_to_go!?= In-Reply-To: <20070119131140.GJ18663@lenin.net> References: <14e60b050701160905v1646529dx4eb690387b7e14de@mail.gmail.com> <20070119120626.GA3139@www2.mrbrklyn.com> <20070119131140.GJ18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <200701190924.03323.Nathan@eckenrodehouse.net> On Friday 19 January 2007 08:11, Peter C. Norton wrote: > > Let's end this thread. It's becoming a venting of long-standing > personal issues. In other words it's gotten stupid. > > Yes, that means I'm willing to muzzle anyone who continues attacking > so please don't. > > -Peter Thank you Peter. I have just recently started attending NYLUG meetigns and have been watching the mailing list for about six months and frankly it is because of "discussions" like this that make me very apprehensive about talking to anybody at the meeting. -- Nathan D.Eckenrode www.EckenrodeHouse.net Nathan at EckenrodeHouse.net 646.942.7669 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:21:12 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:21:12 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! Message-ID: <14e60b050701190721w747b0e97x1e25ff8a8a12eddf@mail.gmail.com> C'mon you have to admit that Sunney has a tendency to run his mouth without thinking, and granted Ruben did vent personal issues he has with Sunney. However, what he vented wasn't entirely untrue, also he offered substantial response to the digital rights issue. Steve M ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's end this thread. It's becoming a venting of long-standing personal issues. In other words it's gotten stupid. Yes, that means I'm willing to muzzle anyone who continues attacking so please don't. -Peter From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:27:15 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:27:15 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! Message-ID: <14e60b050701190727r1bc10731ydbde3ee3ebacb244@mail.gmail.com> Jay, you are so trite it is neaseating, I started this thread and the next thing I know you hijack it with a half-insane rant about microsoft locking boxes. You completely blasted any chances of this thread actually fostering a meaningful discussion. Thanks man, thanks alot Steve M ------------------------------- The issue is "Who has root?". oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:38:35 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:38:35 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server Message-ID: <14e60b050701190738g37e83a8fnf30ff01173b5ba94@mail.gmail.com> I was able to setup Slackware with KDE on one of my work machines, the install was actually not that hard when taking into consideration that I knew why the boot directory wouldnt mount and the kernel couldn't be found. It did require a little tweaking to get the GUI to work too, also since I knew the gist of how to get a box up and running I couldn't be happier. Naturally where I work they use a MS mail server, is there a way to connect to it using one of the mail clients that come with Linux? Steve M From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:44:09 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Rajesh Menon) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:44:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Cory Doctorow : Free Culture @ NYU and NYU ACM Message-ID: <45B0E749.4050604@gmail.com> If anyone's interested ... At 5pm today Free Culture @ NYU and NYU ACM are hosting a talk by Cory Doctorow. The event will be at the Courant Institute (251 Mercer Street) in Room 109 at 5pm-7pm. Cory will be speaking on "State of the Copyfight 2007: Looking up, not out of the woods yet." Cory co-edits BoingBoing.net (the internet's second most popular blog according to technorati.com), writes sci-fi novels (http://craphound.com/index.php?cat=5) that are released under Creative Commons licenses, and serves on the board of numerous organizations. Read his bio (http://craphound.com/bio.php) or his Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Doctorow). The event will be free and open to the public. -- Rajesh Menon From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:47:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Rajesh Menon) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:47:10 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] oops Message-ID: <45B0E7FE.80302@gmail.com> Sorry, but I seem to have posted the same as what Jay had y'day. Kindly disregard my last email. Thanks. -- Rajesh Menon From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:51:22 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (N.J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:51:22 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701190738g37e83a8fnf30ff01173b5ba94@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190738g37e83a8fnf30ff01173b5ba94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070119155122.GA13760@ayvali.org> * [2007-01-19 10:38:35 -0500]: > Naturally where I work they use a MS mail server, is there a way to > connect to it using one of the mail clients that come with Linux? I been at a couple of places where Exchange was the corporate mail server. The primary way to connect was to use Outlook over MAPI. But each instance of Exchange ran IMAP so I was able to use getmail to just pull mail off the server and forward it to my local box. The mail admins might have disabled IMAP/POP access, but probably not. Can you check with an IMAP/POP client? Thomas From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 10:57:15 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:57:15 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server Message-ID: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> When I was initially setting up my mail box I had tried IMAP/POP using the same configuration the other guys had. I wasn't not getting any success, however the other guys are connecting using IMAP/POP. Is it possible the admins left the other guys connecting to IMAP/POP and being that I'm new they disabled it for me? Steve M ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The mail admins might have disabled IMAP/POP access, but probably not. Can you check with an IMAP/POP client? Thomas From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 11:03:30 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (N.J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:03:30 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070119160330.GB13760@ayvali.org> * [2007-01-19 10:57:15 -0500]: > I wasn't not getting any success, however the other guys are > connecting using IMAP/POP. Is it possible the admins left the other > guys connecting to IMAP/POP and being that I'm new they disabled it > for me? It is technically possible, but I don't know too many admins that would do that without good reason. Why don't you go and ask them? I think a more likely scenario is that you are either not connecting with the proper credentials or using the wrong protocol, IMAP vs IMAP+SSL vs MultidropIMAP, etc. But again, check with your admins to be sure. Thomas From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 11:13:31 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:13:31 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701190721w747b0e97x1e25ff8a8a12eddf@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190721w747b0e97x1e25ff8a8a12eddf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070119161331.GK18663@lenin.net> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 10:21:12AM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > C'mon you have to admit that Sunney has a tendency to run his mouth > without thinking, and granted Ruben > did vent personal issues he has with Sunney. However, what he vented > wasn't entirely untrue, also he offered > substantial response to the digital rights issue. Nope, I don't have to admit anything, and I'm not going to take sides. Nor am I going to allow for equal-opportunity sniping. The venting is not excused by the response as the response has to be able to stand on its own. After many years of saying this it doesn't get old: if you want to say something nasty and personal to someone, send a personal email. If you think that the list is a way to get around someone's killfile or delete key, then once in a while I'll take offense at the list being taken for granted and do something about it. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 11:14:10 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:14:10 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701190727r1bc10731ydbde3ee3ebacb244@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190727r1bc10731ydbde3ee3ebacb244@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070119161410.GL18663@lenin.net> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 10:27:15AM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > Jay, you are so trite it is neaseating, I started this thread and the > next thing I know you hijack > it with a half-insane rant about microsoft locking boxes. You > completely blasted any chances of > this thread actually fostering a meaningful discussion. > > Thanks man, thanks alot Hey, good work in getting yourself muzzled! You've been told this before: stop trolling. You're not posting for 2 weeks. -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 12:13:06 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael B Allen) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:13:06 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070119121306.32e8d981.mba2000@ioplex.com> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:57:15 -0500 sixtyfourbeets wrote: > When I was initially setting up my mail box I had tried IMAP/POP using > the same configuration > the other guys had. I wasn't not getting any success, however the > other guys are connecting using IMAP/POP. > Is it possible the admins left the other guys connecting to IMAP/POP > and being that I'm new they disabled > it for me? Doubt it. The best way to figure out what's going on is to get a packet capture. In my experience it usually has to do with some setting like a port or TLS vs STARTTLS or the IMAP client's inability to handle a referral (e.g. you have to use the specific server your mailbox resides on). Linux IMAP clients are designed occomidating a wide variety of servers and server configs so they have lots of things you need to set right whereas MS clients are tuned to MS servers. Mike -- Michael B Allen PHP Active Directory SSO http://www.ioplex.com/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 12:20:33 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (sixtyfourbeets) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:20:33 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <20070119121306.32e8d981.mba2000@ioplex.com> References: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> <20070119121306.32e8d981.mba2000@ioplex.com> Message-ID: <14e60b050701190920k5dd87e59t82f0af8b57d12f65@mail.gmail.com> It was actually a lot simpler than that. Apparently I was trying to connect to the wrong server, and the only way I found this out was walking over to the other new guy who is very Linux knowledgeable. The veterans were sending me to imap.company.com, pop3.company.com which was the wrong server name. Thanks though, Steve M On 1/19/07, Michael B Allen wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:57:15 -0500 > sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > > When I was initially setting up my mail box I had tried IMAP/POP using > > the same configuration > > the other guys had. I wasn't not getting any success, however the > > other guys are connecting using IMAP/POP. > > Is it possible the admins left the other guys connecting to IMAP/POP > > and being that I'm new they disabled > > it for me? > > Doubt it. The best way to figure out what's going on is to get a packet > capture. In my experience it usually has to do with some setting like > a port or TLS vs STARTTLS or the IMAP client's inability to handle a > referral (e.g. you have to use the specific server your mailbox resides > on). Linux IMAP clients are designed occomidating a wide variety of > servers and server configs so they have lots of things you need to set > right whereas MS clients are tuned to MS servers. > > Mike > > -- > Michael B Allen > PHP Active Directory SSO > http://www.ioplex.com/ > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 13:14:41 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (R. Drew Davis) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:14:41 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <14e60b050701190920k5dd87e59t82f0af8b57d12f65@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> <20070119121306.32e8d981.mba2000@ioplex.com> <14e60b050701190920k5dd87e59t82f0af8b57d12f65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1169230481.15692.55.camel@localhost> I don't have Exchange here, so my plan had been to sit quietly and learn something. But I was surprised as this discussion wound down that nobody mentioned the Evolution Exchange Connector?? I thought that had some edge in connecting Evolution to an Exchange server. http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/trench/16234.html Is the lesson that if Exchange is configured with POP or IMAP, you don't need that Exchange Connector for anything? Drew On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 12:20 -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > It was actually a lot simpler than that. > Apparently I was trying to connect to the wrong server, and the only way I > found this out was > walking over to the other new guy who is very Linux knowledgeable. > The veterans were sending me to imap.company.com, pop3.company.com which was > the wrong server name. > > Thanks though, > Steve M > > On 1/19/07, Michael B Allen wrote: > > > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:57:15 -0500 > > sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > > > > When I was initially setting up my mail box I had tried IMAP/POP using > > > the same configuration > > > the other guys had. I wasn't not getting any success, however the > > > other guys are connecting using IMAP/POP. > > > Is it possible the admins left the other guys connecting to IMAP/POP > > > and being that I'm new they disabled > > > it for me? > > > > Doubt it. The best way to figure out what's going on is to get a packet > > capture. In my experience it usually has to do with some setting like > > a port or TLS vs STARTTLS or the IMAP client's inability to handle a > > referral (e.g. you have to use the specific server your mailbox resides > > on). Linux IMAP clients are designed occomidating a wide variety of > > servers and server configs so they have lots of things you need to set > > right whereas MS clients are tuned to MS servers. > > > > Mike > > > > -- > > Michael B Allen > > PHP Active Directory SSO > > http://www.ioplex.com/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 15:54:01 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:54:01 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters Message-ID: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> I some delimited text that I want to remove "columns" from with cut. How can I specify delimiters like ? (ascii 254), ? (ascii 174), or a control character (like ascii 020)? Thanks. jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 16:04:51 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:04:51 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do this since they can be more flexible about these things. -Peter On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 03:54:01PM -0500, jh wrote: > I some delimited text that I want to remove "columns" from with cut. > > How can I specify delimiters like ? (ascii 254), ? (ascii 174), or a > control character (like ascii 020)? > > Thanks. > > jh > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 16:21:36 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:21:36 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> Peter C. Norton wrote: > You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to > handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do > this since they can be more flexible about these things. Apparently so. The command line: cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt does not work :( Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. jh > -Peter > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 03:54:01PM -0500, jh wrote: >> I some delimited text that I want to remove "columns" from with cut. >> >> How can I specify delimiters like ? (ascii 254), ? (ascii 174), or a >> control character (like ascii 020)? >> >> Thanks. >> >> jh >> _____________________________________________________________________________ >> Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org >> The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org >> The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk >> To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 16:34:06 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Yusuke Shinyama) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:34:06 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:21:36 -0500, jh wrote: > > Peter C. Norton wrote: > > You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to > > handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do > > this since they can be more flexible about these things. > > Apparently so. The command line: > > cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt > > does not work :( As far as I tried, gawk accepts a backslash notation for its delimiter. So if you really want to stick with standard tools, try gawk. $ gawk -F'\024' '{print$1}' somefile.txt > Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. It's not that strange, given that these programs were separately designed and implemented by different people. As for the delimiter option, I'm always very confused with options for different programs. Seems like there's no standard for this... cut: -d sort: -t awk: -F Yusuke From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 18:41:52 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Johnn Tan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:41:52 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <1169230481.15692.55.camel@localhost> References: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> <20070119121306.32e8d981.mba2000@ioplex.com> <14e60b050701190920k5dd87e59t82f0af8b57d12f65@mail.gmail.com> <1169230481.15692.55.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <45B15740.2080805@gmail.com> R. Drew Davis wrote: > I don't have Exchange here, so my plan had been to sit quietly and learn > something. But I was surprised as this discussion wound down that > nobody mentioned the Evolution Exchange Connector?? I thought that had > some edge in connecting Evolution to an Exchange server. > > http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/trench/16234.html > > Is the lesson that if Exchange is configured with POP or IMAP, you don't > need that Exchange Connector for anything? Correct. If Exchange is IMAP-enabled, use that with Thunderbird. Unfortunately, IMAP is disabled at my company, so I have to use Evolution (well, I could use POP but I find that even less satisfactory). Since I am a longtime user of Thunderbird, I find the UI differences between it and Evolution to be slightly annoying but at least livable. However, the biggest annoyance is that Evolution (rather, pieces of it, like the connector) are always crashing or just "hanging" for looong periods of time. Sadly, I am now setting up VMWare in Ubuntu for the sole purpose of running WinXP, for the sole purpose of running Outlook 2003. johnn From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 20:08:22 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Michael B Allen) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:08:22 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Connecting to an MS mail server In-Reply-To: <45B15740.2080805@gmail.com> References: <14e60b050701190757h2fec2bb9kdc4ac33de6addea3@mail.gmail.com> <20070119121306.32e8d981.mba2000@ioplex.com> <14e60b050701190920k5dd87e59t82f0af8b57d12f65@mail.gmail.com> <1169230481.15692.55.camel@localhost> <45B15740.2080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070119200822.2371cde8.mba2000@ioplex.com> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:41:52 -0500 Johnn Tan wrote: > R. Drew Davis wrote: > > I don't have Exchange here, so my plan had been to sit quietly and learn > > something. But I was surprised as this discussion wound down that > > nobody mentioned the Evolution Exchange Connector?? I thought that had > > some edge in connecting Evolution to an Exchange server. > > > > http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/trench/16234.html > > > > Is the lesson that if Exchange is configured with POP or IMAP, you don't > > need that Exchange Connector for anything? > > Correct. If Exchange is IMAP-enabled, use that with Thunderbird. > Unfortunately, IMAP is disabled at my company, so I have to use > Evolution (well, I could use POP but I find that even less satisfactory). > > Since I am a longtime user of Thunderbird, I find the UI differences > between it and Evolution to be slightly annoying but at least livable. > > However, the biggest annoyance is that Evolution (rather, pieces of it, > like the connector) are always crashing or just "hanging" for looong > periods of time. > > Sadly, I am now setting up VMWare in Ubuntu for the sole purpose of > running WinXP, for the sole purpose of running Outlook 2003. Doesn't Codeweaver's Crossover run Outlook? Mike -- Michael B Allen PHP Active Directory SSO http://www.ioplex.com/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Jan 19 23:12:39 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:12:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Yusuke Shinyama wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:21:36 -0500, jh wrote: >> >> Peter C. Norton wrote: >>> You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to >>> handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do >>> this since they can be more flexible about these things. >> >> Apparently so. The command line: >> >> cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt >> >> does not work :( > > As far as I tried, gawk accepts a backslash notation for its delimiter. > So if you really want to stick with standard tools, try gawk. > > $ gawk -F'\024' '{print$1}' somefile.txt > >> Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. > > It's not that strange, given that these programs were separately > designed and implemented by different people. > > As for the delimiter option, I'm always very confused with options > for different programs. Seems like there's no standard for this... > > cut: -d > sort: -t > awk: -F > > Yusuke Aubrey Jaffer's SCM, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/SCM.html has a builtin "string-split":
SCM version 5e3, Copyright (C) 1990-2002 Free Software Foundation. SCM comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `(terms)'. This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; type `(terms)' for details. ;loading /usr/share/slib/require ;done loading /usr/share/slib/require.scm ;loading /usr/share/slib/require ;done loading /usr/share/slib/require.scm ;loading /usr/lib/scm/Link ;done loading /usr/lib/scm/Link.scm ;loading /usr/lib/scm/Transcen ;done loading /usr/lib/scm/Transcen.scm > integer->char #char> > (define string-char-024 (string (integer->char 20))) # > (define test-str (string-append "abc" string-char-024 "def" string-char-024 "\ghi")) # > (string-length test-str) 11 > (string-split string-char-024 test-str) #("abc" "def" "ghi") > (quit) ;EXIT Process scheme finished
One advantage of Lisp over sh is that it is possible to explain the quoting rules of Lisp. And Lisp has a similar advantage over XML: it is possible to explain the syntax of sexps. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 03:37:21 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (H. G.) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 03:37:21 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] Linux will be obsolete in two years; Trust Computing is the way to go! In-Reply-To: <20070119161410.GL18663@lenin.net> References: <14e60b050701190727r1bc10731ydbde3ee3ebacb244@mail.gmail.com> <20070119161410.GL18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <60131f920701200037o31d207c0u767c89cd642fa21c@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/07, Peter C. Norton wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 10:27:15AM -0500, sixtyfourbeets wrote: > > Jay, you are so trite it is neaseating, I started this thread and the > > next thing I know you hijack > > it with a half-insane rant about microsoft locking boxes. You > > completely blasted any chances of > > this thread actually fostering a meaningful discussion. > > > > Thanks man, thanks alot > > Hey, good work in getting yourself muzzled! You've been told this > before: > > stop trolling. > > You're not posting for 2 weeks. > > -Peter > > -- > The 5 year plan: > In five years we'll make up another plan. > Or just re-use this one. > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > And here I thought that being part of the NYLUG mailing lists would let me get in on some good, fun, technical Linux & FOSS tinkering discussions..... From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 03:41:54 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (H. G.) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 03:41:54 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> Message-ID: <60131f920701200041m59f159f3i24d57527315967@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/07, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Yusuke Shinyama wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:21:36 -0500, jh wrote: > >> > >> Peter C. Norton wrote: > >>> You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to > >>> handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do > >>> this since they can be more flexible about these things. > >> > >> Apparently so. The command line: > >> > >> cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt > >> > >> does not work :( > > > > As far as I tried, gawk accepts a backslash notation for its delimiter. > > So if you really want to stick with standard tools, try gawk. > > > > $ gawk -F'\024' '{print$1}' somefile.txt > > > >> Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. > > > > It's not that strange, given that these programs were separately > > designed and implemented by different people. > > > > As for the delimiter option, I'm always very confused with options > > for different programs. Seems like there's no standard for this... > > > > cut: -d > > sort: -t > > awk: -F > > > > Yusuke > > Aubrey Jaffer's SCM, > > http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/SCM.html > > has a builtin "string-split": > >
what="a window on my screen" > more="scm under Emacs, on top of quack"> > > SCM version 5e3, Copyright (C) 1990-2002 Free Software Foundation. > SCM comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `(terms)'. > This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it > under certain conditions; type `(terms)' for details. > ;loading /usr/share/slib/require > ;done loading /usr/share/slib/require.scm > ;loading /usr/share/slib/require > ;done loading /usr/share/slib/require.scm > ;loading /usr/lib/scm/Link > ;done loading /usr/lib/scm/Link.scm > ;loading /usr/lib/scm/Transcen > ;done loading /usr/lib/scm/Transcen.scm > > integer->char > #char> > > (define string-char-024 (string (integer->char 20))) > # > > (define test-str > (string-append "abc" string-char-024 "def" string-char-024 "\ghi")) > # > > (string-length test-str) > 11 > > (string-split string-char-024 test-str) > #("abc" "def" "ghi") > > (quit) > ;EXIT > > Process scheme finished > >
> > One advantage of Lisp over sh is that it is possible to explain > the quoting rules of Lisp. And Lisp has a similar advantage over > XML: it is possible to explain the syntax of sexps. > > oo--JS. > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > "OK, simple Unix utilities and perl/awk won't do. What you need is LISP!" Talk about using the chain-saw for the butter knife. (I was just kidding! [ I know that is going to get me bludgeoned ] /me goes to find his asbestos under-garments ) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 06:10:21 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 06:10:21 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> Message-ID: <45B1F89D.9030402@hirschman.net> Yusuke Shinyama wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:21:36 -0500, jh wrote: >> Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. > > It's not that strange, given that these programs were separately > designed and implemented by different people. > > As for the delimiter option, I'm always very confused with options > for different programs. Seems like there's no standard for this... > > cut: -d > sort: -t > awk: -F > I consider it strange as cut, sort and tr are all part of the GNU Textutils/Coreutils, share a common manual, etc. I guess having the different utils have some kind of commonalities beyond that is just a crazy notion :) From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 10:04:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Peter C. Norton) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:04:42 -0800 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B1F89D.9030402@hirschman.net> References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> <45B1F89D.9030402@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <20070120150442.GN18663@lenin.net> On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:10:21AM -0500, jh wrote: > I consider it strange as cut, sort and tr are all part of the GNU > Textutils/Coreutils, share a common manual, etc. I guess having the > different utils have some kind of commonalities beyond that is just a > crazy notion :) It's a good point. It would make sense because it'd be useful to have something integrated. To use Jay's example the scheme shell, where the functions of these tools are integrated for good scripting with common syntax, etc. why aren't all of the coreutils and textutils combined in a way so they have common flags and features? After all, find and xargs have already been extended to allow for null-delimted records to make them unambiguous, why aren't the rest of the tools also capable of being better? I actually do want to use scsh. The problem with the scheme shell is that it's got a fairly large runtime image and overhead (though, compared to scripting with bash, my current default scripting environment, it seems more reasonable than a few years ago?). -Peter -- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 11:10:24 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Jay Sulzberger) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:10:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <20070120150442.GN18663@lenin.net> References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> <45B1F89D.9030402@hirschman.net> <20070120150442.GN18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Peter C. Norton wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:10:21AM -0500, jh wrote: >> I consider it strange as cut, sort and tr are all part of the GNU >> Textutils/Coreutils, share a common manual, etc. I guess having the >> different utils have some kind of commonalities beyond that is just a >> crazy notion :) > > It's a good point. It would make sense because it'd be useful to have > something integrated. To use Jay's example the scheme shell, where the > functions of these tools are integrated for good scripting with common > syntax, etc. why aren't all of the coreutils and textutils combined in > a way so they have common flags and features? > > After all, find and xargs have already been extended to allow for > null-delimted records to make them unambiguous, why aren't the rest of > the tools also capable of being better? > > I actually do want to use scsh. The problem with the scheme shell is > that it's got a fairly large runtime image and overhead (though, > compared to scripting with bash, my current default scripting > environment, it seems more reasonable than a few years ago?). > > -Peter I use scm, NOW WITH STRONGER SLIB!, but scsh is indeed tempting. I have not tried it yet. oo--JS. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 11:12:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (David Rosenstrauch) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:12:42 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <45B23F7A.4090508@darose.net> jh wrote: > > Peter C. Norton wrote: >> You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to >> handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do >> this since they can be more flexible about these things. > > Apparently so. The command line: > > cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt > > does not work :( Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. > > jh Isn't it supposed to be a backslash? i.e., \024 instead of /024 DR From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 12:47:37 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ron Guerin) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 12:47:37 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <20070120150442.GN18663@lenin.net> References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> <45B1F89D.9030402@hirschman.net> <20070120150442.GN18663@lenin.net> Message-ID: <45B255B9.6050400@vnetworx.net> Peter C. Norton wrote: > I actually do want to use scsh. The problem with the scheme shell is > that it's got a fairly large runtime image and overhead (though, > compared to scripting with bash, my current default scripting > environment, it seems more reasonable than a few years ago?). Which leads me to pipe in again about how just about everyone using Linux is running bash, but has been taught by example to script it as though it were Bourne. They've got the baggage of a full-service operation, and they're paying for full-service, yet they're pumping their own gas. I don't think we're doing people favors by continuing to teach the vast masses to write scripts that will work when they suddenly change careers to be system administrators of a heterogeneous data center or on a tour of the Computer Museum. say no to: ME=`basename ${0}` say yes to: ME=${0##*/} It was never the Unix way to use huge tools, ignore their capabilities, and re-implement those capabilities using external tools. "...bash (which long ago abandoned the 'small is beautiful' principal and went the way of emacs) ..." http://linuxgazette.net/issue18/bash.html That article was published in 1997. If bash stopped being small long before 10 years ago, and people continue to use it today, it's time they learned how to use _it_, and not Bourne. - Ron From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 15:15:09 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (jh) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:15:09 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B23F7A.4090508@darose.net> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B23F7A.4090508@darose.net> Message-ID: <45B2784D.10301@hirschman.net> David Rosenstrauch wrote: > jh wrote: >>The command line: >> >> cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt >> >> does not work :( Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. >> >> jh > > Isn't it supposed to be a backslash? i.e., \024 instead of /024 > Yes, it is supposed to be a backslash. No, it still doesn't work :) jh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 15:21:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:21:08 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B2784D.10301@hirschman.net> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <45B23F7A.4090508@darose.net> <45B2784D.10301@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <200701201521.08890.sunny@opencurve.org> On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:15, jh wrote: > Yes, it is supposed to be a backslash. No, it still doesn't work for a good reason as well. the cut.c source: if (optarg[0] != '\0' && optarg[1] != '\0') FATAL_ERROR (_("the delimiter must be a single character")); -- Sunny Dubey mail: sunny at opencurve.org tele: 212.333.3542 From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 17:03:43 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:03:43 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <200701201521.08890.sunny@opencurve.org> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <45B23F7A.4090508@darose.net> <45B2784D.10301@hirschman.net> <200701201521.08890.sunny@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <1169330623.26545.4.camel@flatbush.mrbrklyn.com> On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:21 -0500, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:15, jh wrote: > > Yes, it is supposed to be a backslash. No, it still doesn't work > > for a good reason as well. the cut.c source: > > if (optarg[0] != '\0' && optarg[1] != '\0') > FATAL_ERROR (_("the delimiter must be a single character")); Think the shell has any say in it? cut --delimiter="\024" --fields=1 somefile.txt From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 17:07:23 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:07:23 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: <45B2784D.10301@hirschman.net> References: <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B23F7A.4090508@darose.net> <45B2784D.10301@hirschman.net> Message-ID: <1169330843.26545.6.camel@flatbush.mrbrklyn.com> man bash words of the form $'string' are treated specially. The word expands to string, with backslash-escaped characters replaced as specifed by the ANSI C standard. Backslash escape sequences, if present, are decoded as follows: \a alert (bell) \b backspace \e an escape character \f form feed \n new line \r carriage return \t horizontal tab \v vertical tab \\ backslash \' single quote \nnn the eight-bit character whose value is the octal value nnn (one to three digits) \xHH the eight-bit character whose value is the hexadecimal On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:15 -0500, jh wrote: > David Rosenstrauch wrote: > > jh wrote: > >>The command line: > >> > >> cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt > >> > >> does not work :( Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. > >> > >> jh > > > > Isn't it supposed to be a backslash? i.e., \024 instead of /024 > > > Yes, it is supposed to be a backslash. No, it still doesn't work :) > > jh > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Hire expert Linux talent by posting jobs here :: http://jobs.nylug.org > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > The list archive is at http://nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 16:57:36 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (Ruben Safir) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:57:36 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] cut with non-printing/oddball characters In-Reply-To: References: <20070119210451.GM18663@lenin.net> <45B13660.5040701@hirschman.net> <45B12FE9.7030005@hirschman.net> <20070119213406.27621.39435.yusuke@localhost.cs.nyu.edu> Message-ID: <20070120215736.GA16639@www2.mrbrklyn.com> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 11:12:39PM -0500, Jay Sulzberger wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Yusuke Shinyama wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:21:36 -0500, jh wrote: > >> > >> Peter C. Norton wrote: > >>> You may find that cut is limited by what the shell is willing to > >>> handle. You'd be better off in these cases using perl/python/awk to do > >>> this since they can be more flexible about these things. > >> > >> Apparently so. The command line: > >> > >> cut --delimiter="/024" --fields=1 somefile.txt > >> > >> does not work :( > > > > As far as I tried, gawk accepts a backslash notation for its delimiter. > > So if you really want to stick with standard tools, try gawk. > > > > $ gawk -F'\024' '{print$1}' somefile.txt > > > >> Strange, as escaped octal does work in tr. > > > > It's not that strange, given that these programs were separately > > designed and implemented by different people. > > > > As for the delimiter option, I'm always very confused with options > > for different programs. Seems like there's no standard for this... > > > > cut: -d > > sort: -t > > awk: -F > > > > Yusuke > > Aubrey Jaffer's SCM, > > http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/SCM.html > > has a builtin "string-split": > >
what="a window on my screen" > more="scm under Emacs, on top of quack"> > > SCM version 5e3, Copyright (C) 1990-2002 Free Software Foundation. > SCM comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `(terms)'. > This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it > under certain conditions; type `(terms)' for details. > ;loading /usr/share/slib/require > ;done loading /usr/share/slib/require.scm > ;loading /usr/share/slib/require > ;done loading /usr/share/slib/require.scm > ;loading /usr/lib/scm/Link > ;done loading /usr/lib/scm/Link.scm > ;loading /usr/lib/scm/Transcen > ;done loading /usr/lib/scm/Transcen.scm > > integer->char > #char> > > (define string-char-024 (string (integer->char 20))) > # > > (define test-str > (string-append "abc" string-char-024 "def" string-char-024 "\ghi")) > # > > (string-length test-str) > 11 > > (string-split string-char-024 test-str) > #("abc" "def" "ghi") > > (quit) > ;EXIT > > Process scheme finished > >
> > One advantage of Lisp over sh is that it is possible to explain > the quoting rules of Lisp. And Lisp has a similar advantage over > XML: it is possible to explain the syntax of sexps. > Oh - but sh is not LISP. And bash has understandable quoting rules while must people find LISP not easy to understand at all. That's one of the major drawbacks that LISPers seem to forget when scratching their heads wondering why its not more widely adapted. try man bash then in the man program try searching for quotes /quotes The read the man page. ruben -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sat Jan 20 20:46:08 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (NYLUG Jobs Moderators) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:46:08 -0500 Subject: [nylug-talk] [nylug-job] Google seeks Linux System Administrator - New Grad - New York Message-ID: <45B2C5E0.4040607@nylug.org> # JobID: #539 # Submitted On: 2007-1-20 20:42:14 # Company: Google Inc. # Contact: Google Inc., # Url: www.google.com # Phone: Not Specified # Fax: Not Specified # Title: Google: Linux System Administrator - New Grad - New York # Salary: Not Specified # Description: Linux System Administrator - New Grad - New York This position is based in New York, NY. We are looking for exceptional System Administrators, at all levels of experience, to support our growing office and server infrastructure. The ideal candidate is goal-oriented, has the ability to handle interrupts while fluidly switching between several projects, and takes a "work smarter, not harder" approach. Responsibilities: * Configure system and network parameters. * Monitor system stability and performance. * Help develop tools to monitor and maintain systems. * Ensure 24x7 operation. * Rapidly scale systems to meet demand. * Assist with corporate Linux desktop support. * Write comprehensive documentation. # Required Skills: * BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent experience. * Multiple years of Linux or UNIX system administration experience desired, but candidates of all levels will be considered. * Working knowledge of TCP/IP networking. * Knowledge of webservers, firewalls/security, NIS/NFS, DNS, MTAs. * Programming scripting ability (bourne, bash, perl, python, C). * Excellent verbal and written skills with outstanding customer service. # Location: New York City, NY # Furthermore: For immediate consideration, please apply at this URL: http://services.google.com/jobs/application/dice?action=add&job=Linux System Administrator - New Grad - New York About Google: Google's innovative search technologies connect millions of people around the world with information every day. Founded in 1998 by Stanford Ph.D. students Larry Page and Sergey Brin, Google today is a top web property in all major global markets. Google's targeted advertising program, which is the largest and fastest growing in the industry, provides businesses of all sizes with measurable results, while enhancing the overall web experience for users. Google is headquartered in Silicon Valley with offices throughout North America, Europe, and Asia. For more information, visit htt